If this means that the Lib caucus will be made to show up for the vote, and made to vote no on C-391, then kudos. If it means less than that, then I call Bullshit.
As for the proposed reforms, which involve streamlining the system, decrimalizing first time offences, and waiving fees--they're all fine and hopefully will appease the concerns of Liberals from rural ridings. But at the end of the day there has to be a registry there to reform.
Update: CTV interprets this statement to mean that the Lib. caucus will be required to vote against C-391.
111 comments:
once again the liberal party of toronto will put their foot down on the farmers of northern Sask. We are so greatful for your great knowledge and protection for surely we are too stupid too protect our livestock. That sheet of paper will make us all feel so much safer. Do what you want in Ontario and Toronto but to not allow Western M.P.s to represent their constituents on this issue is not a victory for anyone!
I have to have a licence to drive my car.
I have to register my car, to get insurance.
I even have to licence my dog.
Why is it such a hassle for hunters, and farmers to register their gun?
The gun registry is a useful tool that the police use on a daily basis.
Bubba, if you come back I would love to know your reasoning, on why long guns should not be registered.
Bubba,
Just one tought.
If you live in a rural area, or are a hunter or farmer, and a law abiding citizen, I don't want to take away your shot gun.
I would just like to know why it should not be registered, and licenced.
I don't have to register my dog.
I can rent a car, without "registering" it in my name.
To use this by now stupid line of reasoning I should be able to buy dozens of guns without a FAC, and then just pay $50.00 per gun IF I plan on taking it outside for walks.
Or.
I should be able to walk into Hertz and rent a glock when I've had enough of my wife or neighbor.
Bottom line?
Non-conservatve criminology experts almost uniformly confirm no connection between registration of firearms and reduction of use of guns in a crime.
Like current "get tough on crime" efforts, it is pointless vote pandering.
Sir Gallahad,
The police use this system 11,000 times a day.
It may not prevent crime, but it is used in hundreds of cases every year to connect weapons to individuals used in the commission of the crime.
Face it. Conservatives are weak on gun crime, which puts our families and communities at risk.
once again the liberal party of toronto will put their foot down on the farmers of northern Sask.
What's the percentage of the Saskatchewan labour force directly engaged in farming again? 44 thousand or about 8%.
Even more interesting: total value of of agriculture, forestry, fishing, and hunting as % of provincial GDP: 6.8.
Let us first begin by being, above all, honest about what this attachment to guns are, shall we?
"I don't have to register my dog."
In Calgary you have to. Your cat, too.
Bubba:
They only want to register your gun, not take it away. If you can't understand this, you should not have a gun...
BTW I have to register my dog, AND pay $5/yr for the pleasure. OTOH if my dog is lost with the number on her collar, she would be returned to me. See how it works?
Where I come from, dogs have to be licenced yearly. I comply with the law. I am a responsible dog owner, but in the unlikely event she ever goes missing, it is just a useful tool to trace her back to me.
The firearms registry should be no different. It is a useful tool to trace back any stolen guns.
The police want the registry, and if you are tough on crime like the cons say they are, they should comply with the wishes of law enforcement officers.
Golly, are we missing an elephant in the room? Are the anti-registry fellows really afraid that it's a slippery slope to making them register their private parts?
Here's a thought (in large part because I am getting sick 'n frickin' tired of governments funding things through back-door taxes like user fees).
If we can grant that a) the registry program was an initial financial boondoggle that can never be undone, but that b) there is some merit to the system from a public safety standpoint, then here's a proposal.
Public taxes are meant to cover things in the public interest. The notion that people need to pay a yearly fee for their guns seems to be the big sticking point.
So, the registry should stay. Registration for all existing weapons is free. New weapons must be registered at point-of-sale. SELLER and BUYER of a private sale must ensure that licence is transfered (think the two-part registration that most provinces use for vehicles). NO COST TO ANYONE TO FOLLOW. But big-assed fine if you fail to comply.
There: does away with the yearly paperwork and costs complaints. Keeps the public safety aspect, and puts the cost under general accounting where it bloody well belongs.
Not to hard was it?
Are the anti-registry fellows really afraid that it's a slippery slope to making them register their private parts?
It's even less rational than that. This is just a way of asserting a distinction that has no real value except as a tribal marker: urban vs. rural, West vs. East, liberal vs. conservative and part of the conservative movement's pathology of wanting to just "stick it" to them (whoever 'they' are) by taking away everything they've built up and cared about over the last few decades. Everything since WW2, for that matter, which, at every stage of the game, rarely involved compelling them to do anything besides pay their taxes (which we all do).
WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!
The registry hasn't saved one life.
No cop is going to trust such a bureaucratic boondoggle anyways.
In fact, we saw how the Toronto cops used the registry to track down and confiscate firearms.
This will sell in Toronto but definitely not in the rural ridings.
Just another example of how difficult it is to kill a government program.
TG said:
WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?
For what it is worth her is my take.
They are angry, resentful, and mean spirited.
They hate life, and they hate people who do not agree with their warped view of the world.
The BTs are proof, that most of them are mentally ill.
In rural sask the gun is a tool. Just like a hammer or pitch fork. They have been used for decades without any consequences beyond that of any farm machinery. Because of a shooting in Montreal that was drastic, but not with a gun that would have beeen registered.The liberal party of toronto forced all of Canada to register long guns, Other legal guns were registered already. This was not done for public safety it was done because the Liberals had to be seen to do something, no matter how useless that something was. Now our M.P.s are being forced to continue the farce again for political reasons. No matter how you justify it . It is definitely the Liberal party of Toronto sticking to rural again.If not let the M.P.s vote to represent their contituents. For 4 years we have heard about the Minority Cons. and the affront to democracy. If this private members bill is whipped then the Libs prove once again democracy is a joke to them.
Bubba,
You still did not provide me with an answer.
What is the big deal about registering your shot gun?
As for afronts to democracy, hold on their big boy.
Stepehen Harper has used prorogation twice.
The first time to avoid defeat on a non confidence motion. The second time to shut down the committee investigating, the Afghan detainee issue.
Theh cons are also refusing to hand over unredacted documents as ordered by parliament, and recognize Parliamentary Supremacy.
They also distributed a dirty tricks manual to their commitee members, so the con members could disrupt committee work.
The access to information, the access to information has also become a farce under Harper.
They defunded the court challenges program, which helped minorities and women fight for their rights.
Harper is the most secretive Prime Minister we have ever had.
He displays Nixon like qualities on a daily basis.
Who is the afront to democracy?
once again the liberal party of toronto
And how is that any different from the Conservative party of Saskalberta?
Although Ti's already dispelled the myth, here's an interesting factoid; as of the 2006 census, Saskatchewan has an urban:rural ratio of 65:35. That's the 5th highest after Ontario, BC, Alberta and Quebec. Get those wheat fields out of your mind, SK is a mainly urban province.
Overall numbers:
NF – 58:42
PEI – 45:55
NS - 56:45
NB - 51:49
QC - 80:20
ON - 85:15
MB - 72:29
SK - 65:35
AB - 82:18
BC - 85:15
Statistics available here:
StatsCan Urban to Rural
Oops I messed up, Manitoba is ahead of Saskatchewan, so they are actually the 6th most urban - but still mainly urban.
Hot off the press:
Iggy has just announced his pitch about the registry, and it sounds a lot like zeppo-marx's suggestions.
"Under Ignatieff's proposed amendments to the registry, a first-time failure to register a firearm would be non-criminal ticketing offence, while fees for new licences, renewals and upgrades would be eliminated."
Full story:
Ignatieff pitches long-gun registry changes
This was not done for public safety it was done because the Liberals had to be seen to do something, no matter how useless that something was.
So, following that massacre, you suggest nothing should have been done. And then time passes, and we have our own versions of Columbine and VTech and, well, a mass killing every few months or so, daily gun homicides that we don't even bother reporting anymore, a homicide rate that's three or four times higher than it is now, huge areas of our cities that are veritable no-go zones day or night and a general understanding that public safety, individual security and personal well-being all rely solely on the ability of the population to be armed.
Sure, let's go with that. I mean, when it comes to all of that and a registering a gun to shoot critters, there's really no debate, is there?
Iggy can do what he wants as can his M.P.s . But dont whine during the next election "why cant we make inroads in western Canada" and when you lose the M.P.s you have. The registry has not saved a life or stopped a crime.The fact M.P.s have to be forced to support it or it would die proves its worth.
Bubba,
I am just trying to understand your point.
Are all Western Canadians, a monolithic group who all think alike?
Does every Western Canadian have a shot gun hanging on their back door?
Are there no Western Canadians who believe in gun control?
Is every Western Canadian, against registering long guns?
Does every Western Canadian vote CPC?
The CPC, has their own problems trying to break into the large metro areas in Canada.
Why do you think that is?
Do you believe Stephen Harper is universally loved across Canada?
// the farmers of northern Sask. // ??
http://career.kcdc.ca/maps/northsaskmap.php
The registry has not saved a life or stopped a crime.
How do you know this? If a police officer, responding to a domestic disturbance, is able to handle the situation in a particular way because he/she is aware of the presence/absence of weapons, isn't it quite possible that a life, either that of the officer or of one the residents, was saved?
Feh. Onward. Today, I discover, courtesy of one of the founders of the Blogging Tories, that support for torture is a Conservative value.
Sir Gallahad, go easy on bubba. He's been subjected to brainwashing since birth on the us/them model.
Us - good / Them - bad
West - good / East - bad
Rural - good / Urban - bad
Conservative - good / Liberal - bad
It is very difficult to break from such a simplistic, sectarian model and requires serious effort to overcome. Not unlike how a cult follower requires a great deal of therapy to restore independent thinking.
If there were a valid argument to be made many people would support the registry. There is not one. It was purely political in response to a crime it would never prevent. Then it was abused and represented all that was wrong with the Lib party.Iggy can not gain anything fighting this battle.He insists on going places that motivate the CPCs base. He must want to fill their coffers i just dont understand it. Watch the next quarters fundraising it will probably be 3or4 to 1.
Bubba,
The CPC, is the party that is complicit in torture.
The CPC is the party that condones torture.
The CPC is the party that does not respect Parliament or the Canadian Constitution.
The CPC, is the party that is breaking the law by not handing over unredacted documents, and respecting Parliamentary Supremacy.
Stephen Harper is a Prime Minister who showed a complete lack of judgement, in elevating Guergis to cabinet, and then keeping her there so long.
The CPC, is the tough on crime party, who applauded when Jaffer walked.
Stephen Harper has embarassed us on the international stage numerous times.
Stephen Harper is the one who put forward a maternal health plan, that does not include contraception, and access to safe abortions. All G8 countries are condemning it.
Stephen Harper is the Prime Minister, who will have the biggest deficit in Canadian History, after inheriting a $12 billion dollar surplus.
Stephen Harper is the guy who cut the GST, after every economist in the land worth their salt sad it was bad policy.
There is the record. I have left out quite a bit.
Good luck with that.
I like the Liberal chances.
bubba, try providing a statement with proof for a change, rather than stating your opinion claiming it's the truth. You seem to think that rural Canadians make up a far larger percentage of the population. As of 2006 you guys represent 20% of the population. What makes you think you represent the majority of Canadians.
The basic fact is a gun is not an ordinary everyday tool for most of us Canadians. It is a weapon and in the wrong hands, dangerous. Us urban Canadians are familiar with licensing and regulation and you might be surprised Bubba, that most Canadians live their lives quite happily without being outraged about having to license their car, dog, etc.
Now as we are the majority of taxpayers and our taxes pay for your roads, toilet service and infrastructure, do you think it's so hard to go and fill out a simple form for your gun?
Now grow up, get along and stop being such a prat.
Because of a shooting in Montreal that was drastic, but not with a gun that would have beeen registered.
The Mini-14 rifle is a semi-automatic, and will continue to be subject to restriction and registration regardless of any potential repeal of the long-gun registry.
Careful with your lies bubba.
http://www.lowe.ca/Rick/FirearmsLegislation/AGangThatCouldn'tShootStraight.html
Thanks for the Opinion piece Jim...
Opinion..
/rolls eyes
"The Mini-14 rifle is a semi-automatic, and will continue to be subject to restriction and registration regardless of any potential repeal of the long-gun registry.
Careful with your lies bubba."
There you go showing your ignorance of the situation again.
The Ruger Mini 14 is a nonrestricted firearm. Just because it is semi-auto does not make it restricted.
No you even know the definition of a semi automatic or self loading rifle.
You tools that think you know ANYTHING about firearms or Canadian firearms law make me laugh.
Hey Rayburn, check who's opinion it is.
Rolls eyes...
Bubba,
Is it true that the only reason you vote CPC, is that your MP who is a conservative bought you lunch.
I read that on another site, and that is what you posted.
Would you like to confirm that?
I wonder how Wayne Easter will vote.
It's still opinion Jim. Which means its clouded with bias.
jeez Jim. Try getting something a bit more impartial.
But the point is you are still wrong...and I am not.
T of KW I meant the registry would not have changed the status of that gun sorry. but thanks for proving my point.
Pardon me the Ruger Mini-14 is a non-restricted rifle just like long-guns (since you can purchase them legally as Marc Lepin did) but do require registration. Although how this model remains unrestricted is beyond me. Even the CPofC is musing about making more semi-automatics restricted.
And to answer your question Jim, yes I do know the definitions of automatics, and semi-automatics (and military & hunting versions of the later). And frankly I don't see a need for any self-loading rifle unless the vermin in question is a mountain lion or a polar bear.
"But the point is you are still wrong...and I am not."
Hardly. I have not stated a point and you have not proven one.
Don't let those facts get in the way Jim.
Because your response proved nothing, other than you cannot back up your statements with nothing but bluster and bravado. What's next, are you going to challenge me to a knife fight in the back alley to see who's manlier?
Trying to pass off your vitriol as something I said just shows me that your argument is weak.
So shoot me. You know you wanna...
Ha he'd probably do better shooting than he is at proving his argument.
Though Im sure Jim will put his banjo down soon enough to respond.
Wow, you people are truly messed up!
so says Jim to the faint sounds of dueling banjos.
Sorry Gene, I did mix you up with that other fool, T of KW.
Now back to my banjo.
That's okay Jim. I know this hard thinkin' stuff isn't something you Conservatives are used to.
Jim said:
"Wow you people are truly messed up"
Are what exactly are you doing out Jim my boy?
Somebody forget to lock your cell door?
A gun registry doesn't prevent crime any more than a dog license prevents my dog from running away. It does make it easier to know where either of them are though. That's the nub of the argument for both sides of the coin.
so a gun license may allow police officers greater ability to track where the gun went during a potential crime and allow them greater knowledge and ability to reduce the chance of such a crime reoccuring in the future. Wow, that didn't take a lot of thinking to figure that one out. Thanks Double Nickel!
Now Conbots, go put on your thinking caps. I know its been a long time but it won't hurt.
Gene, I know this may be tough for an emotional lefty, but licencing and registration are two different things.
The vast majority of firearms owners are for licencing as well as stiff penalties for gun crime.
We are against registration for a host of reasons.
And what the hell kind of handle is Sir Gallahad? Is that your alias when cruising the gay bars?
Well since conservatives have to do some thinking I don't want them to hurt themselves.
Here is one of their favourite line:
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
"Are we going to start registering knives now"
"you just don't understand how imporatnt guns are to rural Canada"
"Guns are a way of life"
And if none of that impresses, how about the line from super hero, and gun nut Charlton Heston (RIP)
"From my cold dead hands"
Oh Jim
Me an emotional lefty? Cripes man, stop drinking the Shirley Temples and get a grip. Noone is the kind of stereotypes you believe. You really need to spend more time amongst humans.
Oh yeah and you still haven't proven anything. A host of reasons? Explain but please try to use facts instead of anecdotes about your neighbours.
And who says I don't own guns. Maybe I do and have no problem with being responsible about them and no fear of any registration list.
You don't speak for anyone but yourself Jim. Sorry but you aren't that important. Just a touch self delusional.
Oh Gene, I don't claim to speak for anyone other than myself and I am no less or no more important than you my hoplophobic friend.
See, I don't have an emotional fear of a simple tool. I understand their use and the safety involved in their handling, much like a chainsaw, car or kitchen knife.
And if you are a firearms owner and you do not fear a government list, then I suggest it is you who are delusional.
1. The long gun registry was a transparently bad idea, as is most legislation enacted in reaction to singular events. This is equally true whether it is the Montreal Massacre or the parole of a pedophile.
2. The registry was expensive. This is what happens to many government-run IT projects and should not have been a surprise. It did not have to be, but it was. It works now, but could be improved.
3. The registry probably does not do much to suppress gun crime. If you think it does, you have a strange concept of how criminals operate.
4. The fact that some police are in favour of it is not a surprise. (They are also in favour of easier wiretapping, minimal civilian supervision and unrestrained searches. It goes with the job) Many line cops are skeptical of its value, at least the ones I know.
5. The urban Canadian public is laughably ignorant about the state of gun legislation now and before the registry was enacted, and how strict it was for the firearms that really matter in most crimes: handguns. The commentary previous on non-restricted vs restricted firearms is an indicator.
6. People who complain about the registry being bureaucratic and difficult are simply lazy wankers: The process of registering firearms is almost trivially easy.If you are too lazy, stupid or illiterate to fill out the forms you probably can't read road signs, driving manuals or hunting regulations. Piss off, whiners.
7. The licensing process (acquiring a PAL or a POL), is not particularly arduous (the POL is as simple as a passport application) and the training requirement for the PAL is laughably simple. I don't imagine anyone with a pulse could fail it. Urbanites, use Google if you don't know the terms. You might be surprised what you'd learn.
Recommendation: Keep the registry. It's a sunk cost. Charge the goddamn fee instead of reinforcing the behaviour of scofflaws and encouraging free riders. Eliminate renewal requirements that make forgetful or busy people into criminals and waste police time. Make a special allowance for inheritance of guns. Make the PAL course and examination more strict.
Oh yes. Remember this is Canada, not the USA, and the NRA are a bunch of idiots.
Jim,
Awwww......
Is that really the best you can come up with?
Did I hurt your iddy biddy little feelings now?
Go run home to your mommy now, so she can kiss it and make it all better.
Then go into your parents basement, and masturbate while reading your hidden stash of erotic magazines.
Jim probably circle jerks, with all his friends on a saturday night with a ten foot poster of Stephen Harper on the wall.
so he's alone in his room with a goat?
"WTF?!? What did I accuse you of? "
being hoplophobic for one.
Do you need remedial reading lessons for your own comments Jim or is the alzheimers taking effect?
Wow...now you dudes are just creepy.
BTW, I have a wife...you know, as in a REAL woman.
Oh wait, maybe you DON'T know...
Ah yes the Real Woman™. I believe they sell those in those shops on Granville Street in Vancouver. Did yours come with rechargeable batteries Jim?
BTW I thought you were leaving. Guess the batteries arent charged yet.
WNF.. pretty much bang-on.
My only concern, I suppose, is the notion that if we've wasted THIS much money, we're kind of stuck.
I don't own and have no plans to own a gun, so, by and large,personally, I don't care.
I just know how beaurocracy works, and it's never, ever cheap.
It's funny - we get all up in arms when a MP spends a couple hundred bucks on dinner, and the Libs AND the PC's start wasting millions of dollars on a vote-buying effort, and we don't blink.
Oh.
By the way.
I don't have to register a dog or a cat.
I can go buy a hundred dogs from any private citizen I like and as long as I'm willing to take the risk of losing the dog and having it put down if it is found outside, no license either.
And as for the "Lib v. Con" commentary - as I've said, I see little to distinguish the gun registry from current Conservative "get tough efforts".
Bottom line - is they don't do what the public expects, the politicians know it, and they don't give a shit because:
a) it's not their money used to pay for it; and
b) it gets them votes from their base.
Good Conservatives yell and scream about minimum sentencing (and now making pardon's more difficult to get) which we NEED to make society safe, and good Liberals yell and scream about the weakened gun registry which we NEED to make society safe.
And then the kool-aid drinkers in both camps say things like:
"Conservatives are weak on gun crime, which puts our families and communities at risk."
"Liberals are weak on sentencing criminals and preventing sex offenders from getting pardons, which puts our families and communities at risk."
Or.
Worse - the Liberals KNOW the "get tough" crime bills are bullshit, but are so afraid of alienating the votes of the scared and ignorant public that they don't speak up and tell the government when they are full of shit.
The only reason that the Conservatives weren't afraid to oppose the gun registry from the get-go is some notion of their base being full of the "from my cold dead hands" crowd.
You can bet if the Lib's were bringing in minimum sentencing and reducing privacy protection, they would be sheep saying nothing too.
Jim,
Me thinks yea doth protest too much.
Hmmm.... wonder why?
Hate to break it to you buddy, an inflatable woman isn't real.
Thats what you call a wife?
Where's your goat?
Um Jim. Ti Guy called you a moron. I thought the title was fitting. No go off and play with your real wife™
Another whack job conservative taken down.
Damn it's getting to be too easy.
Almost like shooting fish in a barrel.
I suspect Jim, has disappeared for good.
Probably bawling his eyes out with his "Real Woman" (Roll eyes)
Let's see if he returns under a different alias.
Maybe he should call himself Real Woman, I suspect Jim is a she.
Jim's a shim? Say it aint so!
Clown city. What did you expect.
The registry does nothing but buy votes and effective legislation, like mandatory 5 years in jail for gun crimes is scoffed at simply for political hay.
It's useless to rationally argue gun control with Liberals though. You see that it almost immediately turns into insults and a slanderous smorgasbord.
Well it is time for Fred from BC, to show up. Maybe Wilson, Rotterdam, or Canadian Sense.
Fred got his ass banned from Far and Wide.
Does anybody know if the above circle jerkers are banned from here?
Ridenrain, it's pretty much impossible to discuss anything rational with a conservative these days. you guys just go all blustery and incoherent. Plus the self-righteous indignation that often leads to an incident of conservative hypocrisy.
Probably time to get some new glass panels for that house of yours.
Sir Gallahad: Jim probably circle jerks, with all his friends on a saturday night with a ten foot poster of Stephen Harper on the wall.
Sir Gallahad, Don't all those with a mullet, sleep with the gun in the bed and believe the 4 major food groups are squirrel, moose, cows and pork support Steve today?
Gene Rayburn: Ah yes the Real Woman™. I believe they sell those in those shops on Granville Street in Vancouver. Did yours come with rechargeable batteries Jim?
Gene: he probably shot her with his gun, thinking it was target practice.
Who's life was saved by the registry? It only restricts the people who already want to follow the law.
Most of the guns recovered in Toronto and Vancouver's drug wars are handguns that were never registered in Canada. A lot of the shooters or targets in Vancouver were out on bail or on parole for drug and gun violations. It would have served the public better to have them behind bars.
Double nickel was right when he said:
A gun registry doesn't prevent crime any more than a dog license prevents my dog from running away.
Don't bother Liberals with logic and facts ridenrain, we all know they only understand hyperbole, insults, innuendo and lies.
This thread is certainly proof of their childish antics.
No wonder their party is doomed to opposition, and once the NDP becomes the official opposition, the dustbin of history.
Oh happy days!
Good comment WNF, little bit of common sense goes a long way.
Just as a note, I'm not really paying any attention to these comments anymore. If anyone slanders anyone, someone send me an email.
Also, be nice to Mr. Harvie; he can be turned.
Jim said...
Sorry Gene, I did mix you up with that other fool, T of KW.
Cute Jim. For the record if you don't know, I'm a former PC member who refused to convert after the take over. Nice way to win me back into the fold. I think the Libs have been pretty dense on the registry issue as a whole and have said so. And, I also think Iggy has spoken the first bit of sense about this today.
Further, my family came from rural origins and I know full well why you keep a gun (or two or three) around. Not very politically correct, but things are very different in places were a 911 call garners a best response time of 30 minutes. I also know a good old bolt-action shotgun is more than enough for vermin control. Also, I'm a good shot, found out at 8 when I picked a sparrow off a wire with an air gun. There is a public safety issue involved just as much as with dog and car ownership, and the wingnut NRA mentality just doesn't work up here. You have no idea how silly you come off Jim.
Also... Woodroffe North Folks & Mr Harvie - well put!!!
Ridenrain, very convenient of you to exclude the body of Double Nickel's argument to suit your straw man one.
Jim, please. You haven't been able to provide one piece of factual evidence to prove your argument. Now you pretend to be all hurt by name calling when you've been an instigator of it yourself. Calling me a lefty or a hoplophobic or complaining about other's vitriol in the midst of your own vitriol.
Then of course you make a broad statement based upon vitriol and opinion and act like it's fact.
But you havent provided a fact to prove yourself. Just opinion.
Oh real classy, Jim. You show up and this place turns into a trailer park!
Sir Gallahad, have you noticed how quickly Jim gets angry when his trolling doesn't go his way? he's always trying the stance of criticizing others for their conduct when his behaviour is often the worst.
Still waiting to hear of all these lives.. or even one life saved by this registry.
There simply is no proof that the registry has done anything to reduced or limit crime.
Interesting that there have been two high-profile murders with long-guns in the news -- the Edmonton dealership shooting and the murder of OPP Constable Vu Pham. (The shooter in he Edmonton situation also had guns stolen from his house... yikes. First that guns were stolen from this guy, and the fact that he had them even though he killed someone previously.)
Now the registry didn't save any lives in these incidents, but 8,281 guns were seized in a six month period in situations where someone has threatened violence. Also during the time of the registry there has been a decrease in firearm suicide and use of firearms in domestic homicides. Violence prevented by the registry doesn't make the headlines, but this doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
And the long-gun do figure in a number of crimes committed with firearms -- especially dealing with domestic homicides (85%) and suicides with firearms (74%).
and ridenrain, there's simply no proof of your argument either. Just opinion and bluster so far from your camp. I know the one with the biggest mouth rules on your side of the fence but those facts are what determine it. You have shown none of those yourself.
Balls in your court.
GR,
I have noticed not just with Jim, but all your garden variety tory trolls.
It's amazing how quickly they pull out the victim card.
I have found that they are basically just bullies, who believe their point of view is the only one worth listening to.
I don't know what they gain, because I have made it my mission to just mock them where ever I find them.
Rational discussion with any of them is pointless.
They should stay in the BT swamp where they belong, and stop their persistent trolling.
Wads like them just get off on it for what ever reason.
Fred from BC, Wilson, Rat, Rotterdam, and Canadian Sense are the absolute worst. The bottom of the barrel.
I don't mind Bubba, Harvie, or Tomm, at least they are rational.
They debate honestly.
Get me some weenies, I can feel the heat of Ridenrain's burn here in Vancouver!
I am not angry, even though the attacks on everything from my sexuality to my eating habits have been relentless.
Although I am not surprised, because that is what you libbies do.
I do agree with some of what WNF said. It should be much more difficult to obtain a firearms license. As well, the actual testing should be performed by a government agency, not a private individual. There is just too much room for dishonesty in the system as it stands.
Tell you what, I will offer my complete support for a universal firearms registration system the day after personal property rights are enshrined in the constitution.
Sound reasonable?
"Although I am not surprised, because that is what you libbies do."
Hypocrisy thy name is Jim.
Personal property rights eh? Trying out that my way or the highway way of working things out. It worked so well for dubya and is turning out amazingly for Harper.
I think ignoring you is a better option. One vote from an angry gun loving troll wont change anything. It just means we'll have to hear your sorry ass more.
Didnt you say you were leaving a few times?
So do you come here for the insults Jim? Is this blog your cerebral gimp mask and us your dominatrix?
So kinky...I guess repression from social conservatism does that.
Jim,
Is trolling today. He just posted the same bullshit over at far and wide.
He gets off on being insulted, it's the only way he can get an erection.
OK, Jimmy have we got you all hot and bothered enough to go play with Wanda, your blow up woman.
Off you go, and have a good time with Wanda.
Tell you what, I will offer my complete support for a universal firearms registration system the day after personal property rights are enshrined in the constitution.
Wow, what an ego.
No one cares if they have your support for anything or not. It simply doesn't matter.
What was that Harvie said about not having to license a dog in Lethbridge?
http://www.lethbridge.ca/home/For+Residents/Your+Home/Animal+Control+and+Care/Animal+Shelter.htm
Funny, I am not a social conservative.
I would consider myself to be a minarchist libertarian.
You presume too much. In fact, I consider myself to be quite progressive.
Gay marriage? Why not, as long as people are happy.
Abortion? It's a womans body, she can do as she pleases with it. Although, it used as birth control, then I think she should pay. Health or crime reasons, then the state pays.
Legalize marijuana? Should have been done years ago.
Really, what makes me a pariah in your eyes is the fact that I own guns and am worried about the government wanting to take them with no compensation. Which most gun owners understand to be the Liberals end game.
I have alot of money invested and don't want to have it taken from me.
Besides, the truth is that the registry in general (not just the long-gun aspect) is horribly flawed and incomplete and therefore a waste of money.
As an aside, do you folks know that every irearms license holder in Canada is run through the system every day to make sure they are still legal? It is called the Continued Eligibility Program.
Yes, we have a background check performed on us everyday. How about you?
"No one cares if they have your support for anything or not. It simply doesn't matter."
Right back at you, Ti.
That's a bit presumptuous Jim. I think I take more offense at your ability to make ridiculous statements where you hurl insults and disparage others then act all like a hurt bunny when people insult you back.
Please Jim, this is your modus operandi. Act like you are so gentile and insulted by others yet you throw the mud with a nastiness you often criticize in others.
Frankly I don't care how many guns you own, but I do have a problem with your attitude as a gun owner.
That and your lack of factual evidence to back up any argument you've made.
Jim has resorted to the "I'm rubber and you're glue" defense against Ti-Guy.
EPIC FAIL!!!
Well according to Jim, all his guns are registered.
He is over on Far and Wide, doing some double trolling.
Read his statement about all the money he has invested. He is worried somebody is going to take it away from him.
He believes in abortion, just so long as it isn't used as birth control, if it is he wants the woman to pay for it herself.
Jim will be the arbiter, of what abortion gets paid for and which one doesn't.
He whines about gun registration, and back ground checks. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about then Jim.
Jim considers himself a progressive, but speaks like a regressive asshole.
Jim insults other people, but goes ape shit, when he gets insulted back.
Jim is your typical paranoid, angry, abusive reform party supporter.
Thanks Jim for coming on here and displaying the right wing fringe, that makes up the base of the reform wing of the CPC.
Gene Rayburn said...
and ridenrain, there's simply no proof of your argument either.
I'm not the one lobbying to keep pumping money into a $2 billion dollar boondoggle.
You want to keep it, prove it's a value to Canadians. Make it a platform of your party and make it an election issue.
So far, all we heard was criticism but no alternatives. Your not going to win an election simply criticizing. If that worked, the NDP would be in by now.
I'm betting the rural Liberal MPs that support the registry won't be re-elected.
Ridenrain, that is not an answer. You are trying to change the subject and once again offer speculation and opinion as fact.
Now how about you find some proof, formulate an intelligent argument and come back. I know it's tough but eventually you may find something smart to say, but I doubt it.
Gee, I guess if I cared what you thought of me, Gene, I would take your post to heart.
Trust me, I haven't ever started to be nasty, should the need arise.
I was trying to be nice and improve the level of conversation, maybe give you a little background on my belief structure. We probably aren't much different, except I own guns. BTW, if it matters, I am agnostic.
And maybe if you want to count insults, you might want to reread the thread.
Here, you can add one to my total...
Fuck you!
Thanks for the fun, douches.
Oooops, there's another....:)
There's the Jim we know. Unable to even formulate an effective insult.
Good to see your socon roots finally shone through.
Maybe someone should give the baby his rattle back so he will stop crying.
Or at least his love doll.
Sorry Gene.
You say it's valuable and worth the $2 Billion, you have to prove it.
No lives have been saved, it's made no dent in urban crime and it's compliance rate is dismal.
All it's become is a shopping list for firearm confiscation.
GR,
Jim just proved he was only here to troll.
He tried to pretend he was here for high minded debate.
He got his ass paddled pretty damn good today, and he is upset about it and lashing out, like the child that he is.
His passive aggressive debating style is boring, and tiresome.
He feels like a big man becaues he can say Fuck off.
He wants to improve the level of conversation. Well he keeps threatening to leave and never does.
That would improve the level of conversation inmumerably.
Well Jim, you are nothing but a tory troll, out for a little attention.
I could insult you some more, but what would be the point, you have throughly discredited yourself.
Ridenrain, you arent the government so dont expect me to answer your questions. Plus, you're the one with the bug up your ass.
Sorry but having me answer your questions and argue your points constitutes and epic fail on your part.
Provide your own facts to prove your own point. Im not your mother and Im not going to do your homework.
RidenRain,
I am going to help you out a bit.
Go read the comments of WNF, and Zeppo-Marx. That is how you put an argument together.
Why do you think the long gun registry should be dismantled.
Why do you not think it is a valuable tool.
Put your argument together in point by point form. Provide some links to back up your claims.
That is how you formulate an argument.
If you can do that, then you will be taken seriously.
You will give the other side something to debate.
RidenRain,
Also look at Sharonapple 88.
I have now give you three examples, of how you should put an argument together.
Sir Gallahad, are you asian and perhaps, homosexual?
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Are you male or female?
I am just askin' is all.
Jim,
Still smartin, I see.
Well get over it buddy, I called you for what you are right from the start.
Now you feel the inmature need to crawl back here and try to restore some of your self esteem, and dignity.
I believe I said you were a circle jerker, masturbator, and you played with inflatable dolls.
I also believe I said you play with goats, and jerk off while reading your hidden stash of erotic magazines while in your parents basement.
I also believe I said you had circle jerking parties with your friends, with a ten foot poster of Harper up on the wall.
Is that what has you so upset Jimmy?
Well I guess you got me good.
Now I am done with you.
You can Fuck Off, and go crawl back under the rock you crawled out from.
Feel free to come back tomorrow, if you need some more insults, you get off on them and it is the only way you can get an erection to go play with Wanda, and all your assorted bum buddies.
Really Jim? I've heard better insults come out of the mouths of 7 year olds.
Seems like senility is taking its toll on you.
Didn't you say you were leaving a few times?
"You say it's valuable and worth the $2 Billion, you have to prove it.
No lives have been saved, it's made no dent in urban crime and it's compliance rate is dismal."
Haven't the RCMP already answered this? They use it thousands of times a year. It is a crime solving tool.
On your criteria, we might just as well get rid of the DNA databank and sex offenders registry. Neither prevent crime. They just help the police solve it.
I've posted an interesting chart on Robbery, armed robbery, and the gun registry over at my place.
A whipped vote is aptly named. Mr. Ignatieff has once again put political dogma forward instead of acknowledging the facts. The registration of firearms has failed to solve even one crime in history. The requirements of the Firearms Act relating to training, storage and screening of licensees are useful as a public safety aid.
Bill C-391 would ONLY end the registration of long guns - a proven failed boondoggle. The other aspects would remain in place.
The eight Liberals who voted for their constituents by supporting C-391 have being dropped into the shit by their leader. If they vote against the Bill on 3rd reading it shows once more that party dogma aces the will of the majority of Canadians on this issue. Already we are hearing mealymouthed efforts by some Liberals to save some face after betraying their electorate.
This is just another reason to vote anything but Liberal in the next federal election.
Support of the long gun registry by SOME police associations is misleading. In begs their political and funding affiliations. What is more telling is the opposition to the long gun registry by police of all ranks and services, including the Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police.
The 11,000 figure bandied about is one of those 'damned lie' statistics. Actual gun queries are perhaps 2% of the 11,000 hits and relate mostly to firearm transfers.
The Auditor General said it best. Activity does not mean results and she could find no evidence that the long gun registry solved crimes or resulted in greater public safety.
Wishing it so does not make it so. Get in step with the majority of Canadians who support Bill C-391 that would ONLY end the registration of long guns.
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