tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post4944615460494329888..comments2024-03-17T03:16:44.995-04:00Comments on BigCityLib Strikes Back: Bill 232 Pot Pourribigcitylibhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05081538803991095825noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-70333023448318799872010-04-27T14:00:33.016-04:002010-04-27T14:00:33.016-04:00MM-- good points.
BCL--I wonder if the reason tha...MM-- good points.<br /><br />BCL--I wonder if the reason that the bill hasn't seen very much discussion is because people see it as more symbolic bilingualism. I think the majority of the public doesn't know the degree of fluency which could potentially be required.<br /><br />Niles-- I said "This excludes people raised outside of Montreal and Ottawa, not just Westerners." and "Heck, only 1.8% of Newfoundlanders speak a language other than English--they are worse off than us."<br /><br />Also, I am not declaring French extinct in Saskatchewan. I am, however, saying that it is a massive, massive minority and wasn't really one of the "founding cultures" of Saskatchewan; British, Ukranian and German take that title.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207861101065195385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-41369323089809041302010-04-27T12:12:54.793-04:002010-04-27T12:12:54.793-04:00For the record, I don't think this has anythin...For the record, I don't think this has anything to do with East v West. It's about appointing the best legal minds to the SCC. It is not about the poor lawyers having to learn French, it is about the poor Canadian justice system being weakened by the failure to appoint the best people to the job.Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08112657859825911939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-84171871310708550742010-04-27T11:19:17.008-04:002010-04-27T11:19:17.008-04:00"is that in some ways this bill can be seen a..."is that in some ways this bill can be seen as anti-western and other than Gayle the views in here seem anti-western." says Blair.<br /><br />Dang son, but you got a big brush and a sloppy hand. I'm beginning to think 'anti-western' is 'anything that doesn't agree with Real Westerner Blair's declarations' the way you've been slathering those broad and broader strokes.<br /><br />I can't speak for the other born and raised Westerners lurking around BCL's place, but if you're going to hyperventilate about Ti-Guy's Ontariariarioan attempts to goose you in the ass, you might want to step back from dismissing the rest of the Prairie vox pop here and rendering a founding portion of the Canadian West *extinct*. Your words - decreed not just for Saskatchewan but three other provinces (and chunks of Yukon and NWT) to boot.<br /><br />The bill is anti-western in that you're blinkered enough to see it as anti-western.<br /><br />I guarantee, the biggest crop out of the "West" has been whingeing about the "East", and it has been since well before Confederation.<br /><br />Has it occurred even once that a candidate from oh, say Quebec or New Brunswick, has the same linguistic challenge, in reverse? Or is the presumption to be that everyone just natcherly knows Legal Anglais?<br /><br />Saying that something 'is' isn't always the best reason for it to continue.Nileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04096047389811381098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-16795742529616874612010-04-27T11:16:11.947-04:002010-04-27T11:16:11.947-04:00I'm starting to wonder if, for most people who...<em>I'm starting to wonder if, for most people who might stumble across the story in their paper, they see it as a "lawyer's rights" issue, and not a West vs. East thing or whatever--ie lawyers will have to work harder if they want to reach the Supreme Court. That might explain the lack of outrage. Nobody really cares if lawyers get hassled.</em><br /><br />BCL, that's probably right. As much as I think the law is flawed and that there was precious little debate in the House, in principle I don't think the Senate should kill any bill. What I fear will happen is that once it has become law it will be used as a wedge issue in the next campaign so that the CPC can increase its numbers out west. That's cynical but represents a real calculation for them as they have to feel that they have nothing to lose in Quebec by pursuing that sort of strategy. But the country will suffer.Marky Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465497859724027212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-81360783020023048392010-04-27T11:11:47.003-04:002010-04-27T11:11:47.003-04:00Actually, MM, I was going to write about how littl...Actually, MM, I was going to write about how little traction the opposition to this bill has actually had. I think it peaked at about a dozen MSM stories and twice as many angry blog posts, and thats it. Unless the Senate kills this thing...quietly...I'm thinking it might actually go through.<br /><br />I'm starting to wonder if, for most people who might stumble across the story in their paper, they see it as a "lawyer's rights" issue, and not a West vs. East thing or whatever--ie lawyers will have to work harder if they want to reach the Supreme Court. That might explain the lack of outrage. Nobody really cares if lawyers get hassled.bigcitylibhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05081538803991095825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-30322443797652218372010-04-27T11:04:28.925-04:002010-04-27T11:04:28.925-04:00I think this thread more or less proves the point ...I think this thread more or less proves the point that this change in law isn't worth it. I've heard no real support for the law on its merits and instead I've seen rational reasons against the law conflated into bigotry against francophones. Official bilingualism remains the law of the land and people should be able to debate whether this particular law fits within it or not. Certianly Ignatieff's argument that "we are a bilingual country," which also has been argued in this thread, is out of step with official bilingualism. <br /><br />And don't forget that at the same time as trudeau sold us on official bilingualism successive governments of Quebec have, to various degrees, pursued a policy of unilingualism in Quebec with various measures put in place that restrict the use of English and the rights on anglophones int he name of the "collective" rights of the francophone majority.<br /><br />If people want to argue either that this law is part and parcel of official bilingualism or that we should expand our policy to move towards being a bilingual country, they should be able to do so without calling those who disagree bigots.Marky Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465497859724027212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-62606166425282865062010-04-27T10:25:53.983-04:002010-04-27T10:25:53.983-04:00"Who are these westerners that you speak of B..."Who are these westerners that you speak of Bliar? You know you don't speak for all of us Bliar."<br /><br />And some people around here say I am the one who is too sensitive.<br /><br />At what point did Blair say he spoke for all westerners? I think it is quite apparent he is giving his perspective as someone who lives in Saskatchewan - what with his whole "I live in Saskatchewan" disclosure earlier in this thread.<br /><br />Why so many people attack him for giving his opinion is beyond me. For what it is worth, as someone who has lived in Alberta all my life, and who has travelled extensively throughout the province, and in Saskatchewan, and in northern and other parts of rural BC, I would say his take on things is pretty much in line with my experience. I have family in the Okanagan, and I really love northern BC so generally travel out there every couple of years or so. I even talk to the people I meet while travelling.<br /><br />You may not agree, as is your right, but calling him a liar instead of bringing your own perspective into the discussion is hardly what I would call reasoned debate.<br /><br />I must say I am astonished at the anger and vitriol directed towards someone just because they propose a perspective that contradicts your own.Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08112657859825911939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-50677191326219478552010-04-27T02:48:40.633-04:002010-04-27T02:48:40.633-04:00Who are these westerners that you speak of Bliar? ...Who are these westerners that you speak of Bliar? You know you don't speak for all of us Bliar. <br /><br />Please refer to yourself as a Saskabertan from now on.Gene Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12438068218145410142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-31320628918870910922010-04-27T02:39:23.087-04:002010-04-27T02:39:23.087-04:00The Harper government itself isn't saying a gr...The Harper government itself isn't saying a great deal on this issue, but they are giving free rein to those on the blogging tory aggregate to run with the issue, and in their minds it is about "culture", their vision of Canada and grievances directed at Quebec.<br /><br />This despite the fact the private member's bill was presented not by a Bloc MP, but from a francophone New Brunswick Member of Parliament.<br /><br />No need to get distracted by the facts, in their minds Canada outside Quebec remains some monolithic unilingual bloc with a bit of Mandarin, Spanish and Hindi thrown in for diversity and this is all about "appeasing Quebec". Quite so, in a simpleton's worldview, French Canada can be reduced to Quebec, much as western Canada can be reduced to Alberta. <br /><br />And then they invariably claim they are quite prepared to learn a second language, but would much prefer that it be Mandarin, Spanish or Hindi rather than French, since French is so impractical and limiting, not that they actually intend to expand their cultural boundaries with any such efforts.<br /><br />As for their affinity to alternative cultural choices such as Spanish, I think the recent hue and cry on various blogging tory blogs over Hispanic presence in our neighbouring Republic and the cultural imposition made by such presence gives a true measure of such alleged sympathies.dupmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17421029228908771593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-12494583628972253292010-04-27T01:12:02.747-04:002010-04-27T01:12:02.747-04:00I think it has to do with the perception that Bern...I think it has to do with the perception that Bernier outlined--that Quebecers are spoiled children always wanting more; issues where Trudeau, Mulroney and Chretien all chose Quebec's interests over the west; Quebec making demands from Canada when they take so much equalization. That sort of thing. I think a lot of the language issues are seen as straws breaking camel's backs out here.<br /><br />I think that Westerner's wouldn't want Quebec out of Canada if we saw them as giving something to this country--I'd like to add that I think Quebec does contribute and the views I am describing aren't a dogma I ascribe to but I do think they encompass a lot of the feelings out here--and not just making demands.<br /><br />So a lot of Westerner's see this as just another move in a long list of moves to appease Quebec and it could, possibly, negatively impact them.<br /><br />That's my take,and to a more nuanced extent, my feelings on the matter.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207861101065195385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-42315880278661490932010-04-27T00:55:24.463-04:002010-04-27T00:55:24.463-04:00"They are tired of having to put up with this..."They are tired of having to put up with this cultural duality, and want Quebec out of Canada."<br /><br />Now they do, but when it appeared Harper was making inroads in Quebec they were all for Quebec staying.<br /><br />I am not sure it is about the culture so much as it is about the politics. Quebecers seem to support more government involvement and government programs. RIght wing wing nuts fear that - especially when said government involvement is successful.Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08112657859825911939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-88280079283954414302010-04-27T00:04:52.740-04:002010-04-27T00:04:52.740-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.dupmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17421029228908771593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-3142954985810043492010-04-27T00:04:26.764-04:002010-04-27T00:04:26.764-04:00Gayle,
My comment on " narrow-minded bigotry...Gayle,<br /><br />My comment on " narrow-minded bigotry" was not directed at you, I thought you could judge from the context of the statement that it was being directed against those on blogging tory blogs who are waging a "culture war" against the French language and the French fact in Canada on their blogs.<br /><br />Their intent could not be clearer.<br />They are tired of having to put up with this cultural duality, and want Quebec out of Canada. Then they will turn their attention to the historic tasks their forefathers failed to achieve and clean out any remaining pockets of francophony in what remains of Canada. Such views find currency daily on blogging tory blogs addressing the issue.<br /><br />And yes, second language proficiency is a requisite of PhD programs, the fact that some less than proficient people manage to obtain a degree is simply a reflection of the gap between a stated standard and reality.<br /><br />Sort of like the fact that French language proficiency is a requirement for a medical degree in Quebec, yet sovereignist blogger Angry French Guy recounts from his personal narrative how family members who were denied French language service in Montreal hospitals by doctors whose first question was " do you speak English".<br /><br />Which is why the debate is over something which will largely be symbolic, they will find a way to lingustically incompetent judges bilingual, but that is another story. The current preoccupation is with those who seek to eradicate any, even largely symbolic, reference to cultural duality and the official recognition of the French language in Canada.dupmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17421029228908771593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-27798878897688063512010-04-26T23:42:35.288-04:002010-04-26T23:42:35.288-04:00What I've been trying to demonstrate--apparent...What I've been trying to demonstrate--apparently really poorly--is that in some ways this bill can be seen as anti-western and other than Gayle the views in here seem anti-western.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207861101065195385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-73597789663782042232010-04-26T22:45:27.222-04:002010-04-26T22:45:27.222-04:00The obvious response seems to be that if Westerner...<i>The obvious response seems to be that if Westerners and/or Conservatives want to have their representatives on the Supreme Court, they should get up off their asses and learn French.</i><br /><br />What if we want to do something more important with our lives, like vacuum the same tiny piece of carpet over and over again, or sharpen pencils endlessly?Feynman and Coulter's Love Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05129851946309441082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-8046409141787877162010-04-26T22:11:18.200-04:002010-04-26T22:11:18.200-04:00My western-flavoured Liberal opinion clearly isn&#...<i>My western-flavoured Liberal opinion clearly isn't welcome in here.</i><br /><br />It's coming off as anti-French.<br /><br />Western Liberals are more than welcome here. When they existed in greater numbers, they were a breath of fresh air compared to the establishment type they represent in the East.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-58181886835145049262010-04-26T21:51:57.774-04:002010-04-26T21:51:57.774-04:00"From what I can see, such arguments are bein..."From what I can see, such arguments are being put forward not by the government of Alberta, but rather by self-appointed spokespersons who claim to speak for "the West"."<br /><br />I do not know anyone who is doing this, but if you are referring to some of the comments here, I really do not understand this. Are people not entitled to express their opinions based on their own life experiences? I do not think those of us who speak from our own experience and knowledge are the arrogant ones here.<br /><br />"I would certainly counter that not all of western Canada shares such narrow-minded bigotry."<br /><br />What narrow minded bigotry are you referring to?<br /><br />"Not to mention that competence in a second language is a requisite to graduation in every PhD program in the land."<br /><br />Really? I don't have a PhD but the people I know who do are definately unilingual. Perhaps the standard of "competence" is subject to interpretation?<br /><br />I remember when I started university we were required to study a second language. I chose French since I studied it for 6 years in grade school. On the written exam I scored high enough to be placed in the advanced class. On my first day in class I realized how bad my oral French was. I could not understand a word they were saying, and stupidly dropped out instead of toughing it out (18 year olds do not always make the best life decisions). I took a lower level course on written French instead, passed it with flying colours, and then never used the language in Alberta again. I did use it in Quebec and France though.Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08112657859825911939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-87679582666239890642010-04-26T20:48:56.696-04:002010-04-26T20:48:56.696-04:00I don't know what you're talking about wit...I don't know what you're talking about with the changing of the goalpoasts, Gene. Seeing as how you think that 7/92 western seats, and 5/36 BC seats doesn't constitute a massive failure of the Liberal Party to break into western Canada maybe you shouldn't be calling people fail.<br /><br />Anyways, might as well just drop it. My western-flavoured Liberal opinion clearly isn't welcome in here. Too bad. This is why I hate being a Liberal in SK.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207861101065195385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-42678708412720121492010-04-26T20:46:51.519-04:002010-04-26T20:46:51.519-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207861101065195385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-4118912273992554782010-04-26T20:44:56.443-04:002010-04-26T20:44:56.443-04:00Saying you don't believe something usually mea...<i>Saying you don't believe something usually means you think it is untrue. </i><br /><br />I cannot know how true it is. But knowing I don't believe it is something I can assert with confidence.<br /><br />It's a fine distinction, but it is honest. I don't believe Blair. And the more he comments, the less credible he becomes.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-20584165005659532112010-04-26T20:39:42.432-04:002010-04-26T20:39:42.432-04:00No different than western animosity to Quebec.
Ho...<i>No different than western animosity to Quebec.</i><br /><br />How morally vacuous. There's a vast difference between supporting an immoral, illegal war promoted with outright lies (which were known to be lies <i>at the time</i>) that has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and being miffed at the legitimate criticism of exploiting a filthy fossil fuel reserve.Ti-Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620550471437012866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-60735030924667861862010-04-26T19:43:08.871-04:002010-04-26T19:43:08.871-04:00It's a bit of a farce that Canada lays claim t...It's a bit of a farce that Canada lays claim to a francophone cultural heritage and membership in " La Francophonie", then objects to French language competence by Supreme Court justices. You can't have it both ways, either the claim to "La Francophonie" is justified or Canada should withdraw from membership in this body.<br /><br />This is hardly unexpected, the country as a whole, and proposed applicants to the Supreme Court, have had close to 50 years to prepare themselves since the days of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism. <br /><br />If competence in both official languages is expected of our political leaders and Governor General, why shouldn't it be expected of Supreme Court Justices.<br /><br />You may want to consider the fact that bilingual ability is a requisite to graduation for every graduate of our much maligned University of Ottawa, should Supreme Court justices be held to a lesser standard.<br /><br />Not to mention that competence in a second language is a requisite to graduation in every PhD program in the land. I raised the issue on blogging tory blogs and suggested they campaign against this linguistic "injustice" against graduate students. Since a PhD is a requisite to most teaching positions, are those arguing against the legislation arguing that our Supreme Court justices be held to a lesser standard than any university professor in Canada.<br /><br />I take note that the blogging tories have initiated a " culture war" on the issue of bilingual requirements for Supreme Court justices and have commented on same on their blogs. Do Liberals wish to join in this pursuit, complaining about " French language crap" as they so eloquently put it.<br /><br />There is a great deal of arrogance in the claim that Alberta speaks for " the West" on this and related cultural matters. From what I can see, such arguments are being put forward not by the government of Alberta, but rather by self-appointed spokespersons who claim to speak for "the West".<br /><br />As a francophone born and raised, for a period of my youth, in Manitoba, I would certainly counter that not all of western Canada shares such narrow-minded bigotry. It is quite true that major efforts have been made over the past century plus to eradicate French language and culture in Western Canada, unsuccessful to date. Per my last visit to my father's hometown in rural Manitoba, the current generation is still receiving their primary education in French. <br /><br />Perhaps our Supreme Court justices, and would-be justices, might take the hint and acquire necessary competence, including competence in both of Canada's official languages.dupmarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17421029228908771593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-19599055037127809892010-04-26T18:04:40.897-04:002010-04-26T18:04:40.897-04:00Nice try Blair, changing the goalposts might work ...Nice try Blair, changing the goalposts might work in Conbot land but it's a piss weak defense.<br /><br />Keep beating your head against that wall. It's working!<br /><br />Blair = fail!!!Gene Rayburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12438068218145410142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-12696550713542105502010-04-26T17:44:11.407-04:002010-04-26T17:44:11.407-04:00Hmmm
Saying you don't believe something usual...Hmmm<br /><br />Saying you don't believe something usually means you think it is untrue. <br /><br />And who mentioned hurt feelings? I am not so delicate as that. When I say I take your comments anout Albertans personally, I mean I take them to refer to me as well, what with my being an Albertan and all. I get the whole "using exaggeration for effect" thing, but it is misplaced here.Gaylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08112657859825911939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23292180.post-4788123822272671112010-04-26T17:30:40.580-04:002010-04-26T17:30:40.580-04:00" I got (and still am) over popular Ralph Kle..." I got (and still am) over popular Ralph Klein's antics with respect to the Iraq invasion. And Alberta's ability to vote in a bloc to keep that martinet Harper in power isn't helping."<br /><br />No different than western animosity to Quebec.<br /><br />*thumbs up*Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15207861101065195385noreply@blogger.com