Above the law, the Board of Internal Economy has no legal standing to make such demands, they're not a court, and if the Board of Internal Economy thought they'd win legally Stephen Harper would have refered the case to the Supreme Court, he refused.
This is an attempt by the Liberals and Tories at stealing money from the NDP by a backroom Kangoroo "Court", were the NDP was not allowed to provide witnesses or anything else, where the proceedings were often not made public.
Simply put this is one of the most corrupt actions of the Liberals and Tories I've ever seen.
Bullshit. Your side made one mistake with the flyers which caused them to violate one rule on linking to donations which would have been caught had they not outsourced the work (which is how they fit the partisan definition, not for their message content), and the satellite offices was something that was obviously a problem and a much more clear cut violation from the outset. Bottom line, the NDP leadership drunk on its new powers and access as the Official Opposition got sloppy and made mistakes, and once caught instead of acting as they claim they would they instead got on their moral high horse and proclaimed they are the victims of a massive conspiracy out to besmirch their perfect clean record. Sorry, but its bullshit, and in addition listening to Dippers whine about the abuse of BOIE when in 2006-08 they and the CPC routinuely used it and their majority on it then to screw the Libs on fundraising issues again and again is particularly hypocritical and underscores that for the NDP they will eat their cake and have it while proclaiming doing no such thing and it is all the other guys doing so, not them.
This is one of my reasons for finding Dippers so offensive, it is not merely the corruption, it is they way they refuse to accept their own while denouncing everyone else's. I find hypocrisy irritating, but sanctimonious hypocrisy, now that has a particularly offensive smell all its own, and the NDP drench themselves in it, as do partisans like yourself when you defend this crap instead of practicing what you and yours preach all the time!
BTW, the reason BOIE has this power is because of how Constitutionally Parliament is its own master, and not the courts, so this argument Dippers use about this should be in the courts is on its face clearly a dodge, at least to those that actually understand our system of government, which one would hope any political partisan, whatever their flavour should. It may not be the preferred way, nor the ideal way, but it is the legal reality and to treat it as if it were not, well that is inherently dishonest, and yet another example of Dipper do as I say not as I do in action.
Just because the BOIE is united does not make them wrong, and it should be obvious to Dippers that if they leave the door open for their political rivals to catch them on something like this of COURSE they will do so! That doesn't make their case any the less valid though! What the NDP should have done was acknowledge the errors, say they were made in good faith and work out a deal, it would have been the responsible mature way to handle it. But no, that would risk tainting the NDP brand of moral superiority in all things, and that image is more important than actually being ethically and morally clean. You reap what you sow, and this is your own and you all have no one to truly blame but yourselves, and your unwillingness to either face it and lie to yourselves or unwillingness to admit publicly to it and lie to everyone else is in either respect a further argument as to why you and yours are NOT ready for the powers of government.
This is a non issue and the Cons and Libs know it. Using faulty 'legal' (but not really legal) infrastructure that they control will only wind up embarrassing the Cons and Libs. The NDP have done nothing wrong.
I don't know about the legal side of this issue (and I suspect others don't either) but to me this is just the Harper Tories because they were caught doing dirty deeds during the election. Actually I believe that most, certainly not all, politicians try to do the right thing and sometimes make mistakes.
If the NDP, Liberals, Conservatives, Greens, whatever make mistakes it would be far better to admit that, accepting the findings of whatever 'judges' and make amends.
BTW, Scotian, I can't really believe anyone is above the constitution. Suppose the NDP decides not to pay up. The government would have to take them to court. Since we are talking about a constitutional issue, wouldn't it be logical to ask the SC to rule on the entire issue.
From http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/House/compendium/web-content/c_d_boardinternaleconomy-e.htm
"Mandate and Authority
The powers and authority of the Board flow from provisions of the Parliament of Canada Act, the Standing Ordersof the House of Commons, and the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act.
The Board:
examines and approves the annual budget estimates of the House; approves and controls the budget expenditures of the committees of the House of Commons, and tables an annual financial report outlining the expenses incurred by each committee; and approves salary scales for non-unionized employees and authorizes officials of the House to negotiate the renewal of the collective agreements of unionized employees and ratifies such agreements. (The Board is deemed to be the employer of the staff of the House of Commons, except for Members' staff, who are deemed to be employed by the Members.)
When Parliament is prorogued or dissolved, members of the Board retain their functions until they are replaced."
Not sure where I see the mandate the committee is claiming.
"if the Board of Internal Economy thought they'd win legally Stephen Harper would have refered the case to the Supreme Court, he refused."
If the Prime Minister referred every dispute to the SCC, they would not get any real work done. Though it is mighty convenient of the NDP to suggest taxpayers cover the costs of this court challenge instead of paying their own lawyers to do it...
Sure seems like there is more there than the two front runners ganging up on the party that, at the time of the ruling, was a distant third in the polls. I would be interested in seeing what evidence the NDP has to counter the evidence that has been disclosed so far.
In any event, perhaps the NDP need to be reminded of the time they teamed up with the conservatives to retroactively change the campaign financing limits. They did this right after the LPC leadership campaign ended in 2006. The candidates were able to fundraise using one set of rules, but the contribution limits were changed, after the campaign ended, which had the result of hampering their ability to pay those debts.
its all good for folks to jump on the bandwagon and demand that mulcair follow the rules( and really if we are to believe the ndp spokespeople, the rules were changed overnight, so how could they keep up) but all this does again, is allow the cons to hammer home some bullcrap about how the ndp are just as bad.....and no ...no they arent. This is the big lie the media loves to promote. though I think mulcair should just pay the money to clean up the optics of this, I know why he doesnt want to, as the moment he does, he admits guilt, and he isnt willing to do that. I get why he should fight this, thing is, why dont the rest of the folks. I mean Harper has never backed down from a court battle, and he loses every time ....and he continues to break the rules and fight it in court and then spin the outcome. so I ask, why shouldnt mulcair try to fight this stupidity, its peanuts compared to what the cons and libs have done. but whatever, it just highlights how stupid the whole system is. and harper is the most corrupt politician that ever ruled in canada and if he gets away with it, why shouldnt the rest of them try. IF were not going to hold those in power accountable or bother asking for change, this crap will just continue, and me, I think we have a better chance of having changes made with Mulcair then harper or trudeau.
You point to the reason why I find the NDP bleatings about a kangaroo court so offensive, they certainly had no problems teaming with the CPC on the BOIE back then to try and stick it to the Liberals in the fundraising changes, as you noted, and which I was referring to myself albeit in less detail. The problems I have with these two issues is that at heart the NDP made a stupid mistake in one, and in the other pushed a line too far thinking they could get away with it, hardly unusual, especially when a party gains new power for the first time. The mistake was on the mailers by not using the Parliament to do the work, they would have noted that the URL link went to a site that also took donations and therefore created the "partisan" issue (it was never about the content, and the defences used by Dippers to try and confuse with comparing content of other mailers to their as a dodge was classic).
The pushing the line was thinking they could set up those satellite offices and allow Parliamentary staff and partisan staff to work under the same roof, something that's been a no-no since I was a child at the minimum, since I learned this was a no-no back in the bloody 70s. This is why I find the attitude of the Dipper defenders here so irksome, not only is it the hypocrisy, it is the fact they want to keep their ability to be holier than thou on morals/ethics when their record shows time and again that when push comes to shove they are just as weaselly as anyone else.
Mr. Latimer:
You have to keep in mind that until and unless Parliament actually devolves a responsibility/power to the courts under our Constitution the courts lack jurisdiction. Even though the Parliament passed the Charter along with the Constitution this is still true, and the Parliament was very jealous in preserving its ability to remain master in its own House. When it comes to these issues BOIE is the actual controlling authority, and the appeal to the courts is almost certain to fail (I say almost because I don't do absolutes in such things) for lack of standing, and even if a lower court decides it might I really don't see it surviving at the higher appeals levels. Remember the sexual harassment problems between MPs last Fall, that also illustrates the unusual nature of Parliament and MPs as a power unto themselves.
I grew up around lawyers, had looked at becoming one (and the two areas I was most interested in was Criminal and Constitutional, so I am not entirely talking out of my ass here despite being a lay person). Do I think this system needs changing/reform, oh sure, but I prefer to deal with the reality as it is at the time instead of pretending something is other than it is for partisan purposes, which is what the Dippers have been doing all along here both on the substance of the issues and the way their have chosen to deal with it, or not deal with it as I see it.
Gyor:
Nice dodge, and typical Dipper approach. Thank you for illustrating the point yet again. Much of why I distrust Dippers so much comes down to the way they keep wanting me to ignore my lying eyes when it comes to their failings while totally trusting them on everything they denounce in all others. Sorry, I'm an independent swing voter who decides for himself always, which is another reason why I tend to find partisans tedious, especially when they show they are unable to face reality when it comflicts with their partisan focus.
22 comments:
Above the law, the Board of Internal Economy has no legal standing to make such demands, they're not a court, and if the Board of Internal Economy thought they'd win legally Stephen Harper would have refered the case to the Supreme Court, he refused.
This is an attempt by the Liberals and Tories at stealing money from the NDP by a backroom Kangoroo "Court", were the NDP was not allowed to provide witnesses or anything else, where the proceedings were often not made public.
Simply put this is one of the most corrupt actions of the Liberals and Tories I've ever seen.
They caught you. Trying to weasel out of it makes you look like an old school party. Mulcair should just pay up or face questions until election day.
Gyor:
Bullshit. Your side made one mistake with the flyers which caused them to violate one rule on linking to donations which would have been caught had they not outsourced the work (which is how they fit the partisan definition, not for their message content), and the satellite offices was something that was obviously a problem and a much more clear cut violation from the outset. Bottom line, the NDP leadership drunk on its new powers and access as the Official Opposition got sloppy and made mistakes, and once caught instead of acting as they claim they would they instead got on their moral high horse and proclaimed they are the victims of a massive conspiracy out to besmirch their perfect clean record. Sorry, but its bullshit, and in addition listening to Dippers whine about the abuse of BOIE when in 2006-08 they and the CPC routinuely used it and their majority on it then to screw the Libs on fundraising issues again and again is particularly hypocritical and underscores that for the NDP they will eat their cake and have it while proclaiming doing no such thing and it is all the other guys doing so, not them.
This is one of my reasons for finding Dippers so offensive, it is not merely the corruption, it is they way they refuse to accept their own while denouncing everyone else's. I find hypocrisy irritating, but sanctimonious hypocrisy, now that has a particularly offensive smell all its own, and the NDP drench themselves in it, as do partisans like yourself when you defend this crap instead of practicing what you and yours preach all the time!
BTW, the reason BOIE has this power is because of how Constitutionally Parliament is its own master, and not the courts, so this argument Dippers use about this should be in the courts is on its face clearly a dodge, at least to those that actually understand our system of government, which one would hope any political partisan, whatever their flavour should. It may not be the preferred way, nor the ideal way, but it is the legal reality and to treat it as if it were not, well that is inherently dishonest, and yet another example of Dipper do as I say not as I do in action.
Just because the BOIE is united does not make them wrong, and it should be obvious to Dippers that if they leave the door open for their political rivals to catch them on something like this of COURSE they will do so! That doesn't make their case any the less valid though! What the NDP should have done was acknowledge the errors, say they were made in good faith and work out a deal, it would have been the responsible mature way to handle it. But no, that would risk tainting the NDP brand of moral superiority in all things, and that image is more important than actually being ethically and morally clean. You reap what you sow, and this is your own and you all have no one to truly blame but yourselves, and your unwillingness to either face it and lie to yourselves or unwillingness to admit publicly to it and lie to everyone else is in either respect a further argument as to why you and yours are NOT ready for the powers of government.
If your really believe that then demand Harper refer the case to the Supreme Court, backroom trails are violation of the NDPs legal rights.
This is a non issue and the Cons and Libs know it. Using faulty 'legal' (but not really legal) infrastructure that they control will only wind up embarrassing the Cons and Libs. The NDP have done nothing wrong.
I don't know about the legal side of this issue (and I suspect others don't either) but to me this is just the Harper Tories because they were caught doing dirty deeds during the election. Actually I believe that most, certainly not all, politicians try to do the right thing and sometimes make mistakes.
If the NDP, Liberals, Conservatives, Greens, whatever make mistakes it would be far better to admit that, accepting the findings of whatever 'judges' and make amends.
BTW, Scotian, I can't really believe anyone is above the constitution. Suppose the NDP decides not to pay up. The government would have to take them to court. Since we are talking about a constitutional issue, wouldn't it be logical to ask the SC to rule on the entire issue.
From http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/House/compendium/web-content/c_d_boardinternaleconomy-e.htm
"Mandate and Authority
The powers and authority of the Board flow from provisions of the Parliament of Canada Act, the Standing Ordersof the House of Commons, and the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act.
The Board:
examines and approves the annual budget estimates of the House;
approves and controls the budget expenditures of the committees of the House of Commons, and tables an annual financial report outlining the expenses incurred by each committee; and
approves salary scales for non-unionized employees and authorizes officials of the House to negotiate the renewal of the collective agreements of unionized employees and ratifies such agreements. (The Board is deemed to be the employer of the staff of the House of Commons, except for Members' staff, who are deemed to be employed by the Members.)
When Parliament is prorogued or dissolved, members of the Board retain their functions until they are replaced."
Not sure where I see the mandate the committee is claiming.
"if the Board of Internal Economy thought they'd win legally Stephen Harper would have refered the case to the Supreme Court, he refused."
If the Prime Minister referred every dispute to the SCC, they would not get any real work done. Though it is mighty convenient of the NDP to suggest taxpayers cover the costs of this court challenge instead of paying their own lawyers to do it...
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/02/06/satellite-offices-ndp-sana-hassainia_n_6633494.html
Sure seems like there is more there than the two front runners ganging up on the party that, at the time of the ruling, was a distant third in the polls. I would be interested in seeing what evidence the NDP has to counter the evidence that has been disclosed so far.
In any event, perhaps the NDP need to be reminded of the time they teamed up with the conservatives to retroactively change the campaign financing limits. They did this right after the LPC leadership campaign ended in 2006. The candidates were able to fundraise using one set of rules, but the contribution limits were changed, after the campaign ended, which had the result of hampering their ability to pay those debts.
its all good for folks to jump on the bandwagon and demand that mulcair follow the rules( and really if we are to believe the ndp spokespeople, the rules were changed overnight, so how could they keep up)
but all this does again, is allow the cons to hammer home some bullcrap about how the ndp are just as bad.....and no ...no they arent. This is the big lie the media loves to promote.
though I think mulcair should just pay the money to clean up the optics of this, I know why he doesnt want to, as the moment he does, he admits guilt, and he isnt willing to do that. I get why he should fight this, thing is, why dont the rest of the folks. I mean Harper has never backed down from a court battle, and he loses every time ....and he continues to break the rules and fight it in court and then spin the outcome.
so I ask, why shouldnt mulcair try to fight this stupidity, its peanuts compared to what the cons and libs have done. but whatever, it just highlights how stupid the whole system is. and harper is the most corrupt politician that ever ruled in canada and if he gets away with it, why shouldnt the rest of them try.
IF were not going to hold those in power accountable or bother asking for change, this crap will just continue, and me, I think we have a better chance of having changes made with Mulcair then harper or trudeau.
Deb, He doesn't want to cuz its almost $4,000,000.
Gayle:
You point to the reason why I find the NDP bleatings about a kangaroo court so offensive, they certainly had no problems teaming with the CPC on the BOIE back then to try and stick it to the Liberals in the fundraising changes, as you noted, and which I was referring to myself albeit in less detail. The problems I have with these two issues is that at heart the NDP made a stupid mistake in one, and in the other pushed a line too far thinking they could get away with it, hardly unusual, especially when a party gains new power for the first time. The mistake was on the mailers by not using the Parliament to do the work, they would have noted that the URL link went to a site that also took donations and therefore created the "partisan" issue (it was never about the content, and the defences used by Dippers to try and confuse with comparing content of other mailers to their as a dodge was classic).
The pushing the line was thinking they could set up those satellite offices and allow Parliamentary staff and partisan staff to work under the same roof, something that's been a no-no since I was a child at the minimum, since I learned this was a no-no back in the bloody 70s. This is why I find the attitude of the Dipper defenders here so irksome, not only is it the hypocrisy, it is the fact they want to keep their ability to be holier than thou on morals/ethics when their record shows time and again that when push comes to shove they are just as weaselly as anyone else.
Mr. Latimer:
You have to keep in mind that until and unless Parliament actually devolves a responsibility/power to the courts under our Constitution the courts lack jurisdiction. Even though the Parliament passed the Charter along with the Constitution this is still true, and the Parliament was very jealous in preserving its ability to remain master in its own House. When it comes to these issues BOIE is the actual controlling authority, and the appeal to the courts is almost certain to fail (I say almost because I don't do absolutes in such things) for lack of standing, and even if a lower court decides it might I really don't see it surviving at the higher appeals levels. Remember the sexual harassment problems between MPs last Fall, that also illustrates the unusual nature of Parliament and MPs as a power unto themselves.
I grew up around lawyers, had looked at becoming one (and the two areas I was most interested in was Criminal and Constitutional, so I am not entirely talking out of my ass here despite being a lay person). Do I think this system needs changing/reform, oh sure, but I prefer to deal with the reality as it is at the time instead of pretending something is other than it is for partisan purposes, which is what the Dippers have been doing all along here both on the substance of the issues and the way their have chosen to deal with it, or not deal with it as I see it.
Gyor:
Nice dodge, and typical Dipper approach. Thank you for illustrating the point yet again. Much of why I distrust Dippers so much comes down to the way they keep wanting me to ignore my lying eyes when it comes to their failings while totally trusting them on everything they denounce in all others. Sorry, I'm an independent swing voter who decides for himself always, which is another reason why I tend to find partisans tedious, especially when they show they are unable to face reality when it comflicts with their partisan focus.
4 million, yikes, that I didnt know, oh my!
oh my god, how long did you find the idea for this article ? what a very nice articleman...
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