1) Warman is accused of making quite vilely racist comments on Freedomsite, a website devoted to all things Neo-Nazi, in order to "entrap" the real Neo-Nazis using the site into making similar remarks.
2) The grounds for this assertion are that, in November of 2003, Warman created a username ("Lucy") on Freedomsite from the IP Address 66.185.84.204, which turns out to be an IP for one or more Rogers' computers.
In fact, Warman has admitted to doing this.
3) However, previous to this (on Sept. 5th, 2003), another Freedomsite username (90sAREover) was created from the same IP address, and used to post the racist remarks in question (re Senator Anne Cools).
Warman denies creating this username and posting these remarks.
Now, others have pointed out how iffy it is at the best of times to connect an IP address to a particular computer, especially if, as Rogers's does, the ISP in question uses DHCP . But one thing I don't think anyone has pointed out (unless it was in a comment on Dawg's Blog that I can't relocate): if you google the IP in question you find it being employed by a number of different people on a number of different occasions, and some of these occasions are dated. In particular, the following remarks from 66.185.84.204 appear on Sept. 8th 2003 (between the creation of the 90sAREover username and the Lucy username) on the RPMfactor forum, a racing forum:
NEW SEALED 55 Gallon Drum of PRO FUELS MARK 2September 8 2003 at 12:37 AM GP from IP address 66.185.84.204
110 octane drum of race gas need to get rid of in Toronto. THis stuff needs a home not opened. Changing classes and race gas isnt needed. Sealed drum new in June this year. Blow out price
So unless Warman disguised himself as a racing enthusiast named "GP" in order to sell black market petroleum over the Net, I think we can safely assume that the IP address in question belonged to someone other than Warman between the creation of 90sAREover and the creation of Lucy. There is absolutely no reason to assume that it was his on September 5th when 90sAREover was created.
Quod Est Demonstratum, and Midget, you and your friends are so fucked.
As a side note, you might argue that: well, just get hold of Rogers' IP logs and we will all know for certain. Except that M. Geist has noted in a private e-mail that he doesn't believe there are legal requirements for an ISP keeping their IP logs for any given length of time. If this is the case, I don't think you're going to find any records from 2003.
h/t once again to buckets. I guess we are passed the point where I need to buy you a drink, and to the point where I need to pay your mortgage for a month or two.
Also h/t to Intellectual Pariah who outlined the same discovery last night in the comments of Dawg's Blog.
26 comments:
Hi, BCL. Intellectual Pariah had the post you're looking for at my place yesterday at 1:22 pm.
Intellectual Pariah's comment was a lot of distracting speculation.
I don't understand why it's taking so long to conclude that there is no direct evidence that the IP (66.185.84.204) was assigned to a device used by Richard Warman to carry out the transaction (the racist comments) under the username "90sAREover" without (accurate) records from the ISP.
I'm done with the IP crap-ola. I'll become interested again if Warman files a writ against a whole lot of these vile wingnuts.
...or if FD shuts down...bwaha and ha!
Speaking of FD, Connie Wilkins (aka Fournier) is claiming that "expert witness" Klatt isn't a white supremacist at all, but a "Christian."
Nice fantasy Connie, but Klatt is not only a WS, but such a notorious WS that his long association with Ernst Zundel was used by the federal court as evidence against ZUNDEL. Got that, Connie? He's the kind of guy they use as proof that Nazis are Nazis, you moronic stumpfuck.
http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/en/2005/2005fc295/2005fc295.html
...The Ministers have provided considerable evidence, that cannot be disclosed for reasons of national security, that Mr. Zündel has extensive contacts within the violent racist and extremist movement. Mr. Zündel stated in his testimony that he knew the following people slightly, or had professional contacts with them, or had interviewed them as a reporter. Information showed, rather, that he had dealt with them a great deal more, in some cases had funded their activities, and generally had maintained much closer ties than what he had admitted to in his examination or cross-examination. These contacts include Tom Metzger, Richard Butler, Dennis Mahon and William Pierce in the United States, Christian Worch, Ewald Althans, Gottfied Kuessel and Oliver Bode in Germany, Siegfried Verbeke in Belgium, Terry Long, Christopher Newhook, Tony McAleer, Bernard Klatt, Wolfgang Droege and Marc Lemire in Canada, Nick Griffin in Great Britain and members of South Africa's Afrikaner Resistance Movement. (Re Zündel, 2004 FC 86, [2004] F.C.J. No. 60, at paragraph 27)
[41] If, as Mr. Zündel claims, it is not a good idea to use websites to disseminate messages of racial hatred and incite violence in the pursuit of White Supremacist objectives and that it is not a good idea to post on the Internet a practical guide to Aryan revolution which included chapters on assassinations, terror bombings, sabotage and racial wars, then why would he qualify Bernard Klatt, the man responsible for posting this guide, as a gentle person, and maintain contact with Mr. Klatt over the years?
[52] Based on reliable evidence provided to me in camera, I also believe that Mr. Zündel maintained close contacts with Mr. Klatt who ran Fairview Technology Centre Limited, an Internet service provider which offered access to at least 12 White Supremacy and hate groups. Among the groups that utilized the service were the Heritage Front, the Euro Canadian Defence League - both members of Mr. Lemire's freedom site - the U.S. Nazi Party and the Charlemagne Hammerskins.
[114] Although not all of the 1.2 million monthly visitors, as mentioned by Mr. Zündel, to the Zundelsite are members of the White Supremacist Movement, that volume, on only one website, is an indication of the potential influence this means of communication holds. Many of those actively involved in maintaining this network, individuals such as Mr. Klatt, Mr. Rami, Mr. Lemire, Mr. McAleer and particularly his spouse, Mrs. Rimland, are close associates of Mr. Zündel.
Connie, you can pretend all you want that neo-Nazis like Klatt, Lemire and others are merely "expressing politically incorrect opinions." But all you're doing is making people wonder what kind of sickness is lurking below the public image you present.
Here's a clue, Connie: claiming you're not a bigot because you only hate gays and Muslims but adore blacks and Jews doesn't wash. It just makes you a slightly more selective creep than Marc Lemire.
Reality Bites: Got a link to her saying this?
But of course!
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1132713&sid=190c2de9bb62b0be82aa9a7e57c5aa19
It turns out that Bernard Klatt is not a white nationalist, he is a Christian. Yet now, when you google his name, the top google entries are Warren Kinsella's smears calling him a "hater".
Perhaps we should start compiling our own potential defendents list for Mr. Klatt and put Warren-baby right at the top!
Assume the position, Kinsella!
Her latest Defense-of-Klatt thread (that I haven't reviewed yet) is titled "Has Kinsella gone too far attacking Bernard Klatt?"
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=94260&sid=94c46d1a8105fdbf1fa4d858414df978
Connie is rapidly descending from extreme "pro-life" gay basher to all around nutbar conspiracy theorist. And to think our Prime Minister once shared a podium with this freak at an event she organized! (And yes, I have evidence of that as well)
I actually believe Connie's been lying through her teeth when claiming that her real conservatism is opposed to white nationalism. She may have rationalised every step of the way that her beliefs are grounded in a fundamental morality, but it's becoming increasingly clear that the only people who can possibly share this morality are people of European descent...and not the swarthier or insufficiently "Christian" ones either.
So what are we supposed to call that?
She just doesn't strike me as so thoroughly stupid or insane enough to not appreciate the character of the people she's been defending all the time.
The only benefit of the doubt that I've been willing to entertain morally (not legally) is the defense of freedom to express hatred. But we're looking at associations to actual violent criminality here.
That's pretty weak. Look at the comment thread.
At 00:37 the thread is created from the IP address in question.
At 14:12 the original poster replies to a price query from a different IP address. (Bell Canada ADSL)
At 14:03 the next day the original poster posts again from yet another IP address. The second and third posts though are within the same netblock. (NEXXIAJ10-CA).
In another thread (here) "GP" posts again from yet another new IP address on Sept 19 at 00:41. An IP address that's not assigned right now to any netblock. (Not saying it wasn't in 2003).
Cheers,
lance
reality_bites:
I think there's a lesson here: Don't post nasty factual assertions about people unless you are really sure the facts are correct.
But this doesn't just apply to Richard Warman - it also applies to Bernard Klatt. I would be hestitant to call anyone a white supremecist without really good evidence.
There is plenty of evidence in Klatt's case. Judge's ruling kind of evidence. A long, long, history of activity.
Only an idiot or a like-minded individual would claim he is not. Which are you?
Lance, what is weak? You seem to be saying that each of GP's posts is from a different IP address, which would seem to make my point for me.
It looks more like a problem with the accurate reproduction of the IP addresses than a factual reproduction.
Without knowing how those IP's are displayed (for instance, reverse DNS lookups) I wouldn't hang my hat on it.
I didn't go too far into the site and I didn't go backward in time, but I'm sure there are a lot of examples where the display refutes logic.
We can make the _assumption_ that GP posted from work during the afternoon posts and from home during the early morning posts. That explains the Bell ip's, neatly and meets logical conditions. However there are problems with this as well. The 'work' IP's have significantly spaced outgoing IP addresses. That really doesn't make a lot of sense from a network topology viewpoint unless 'GP' is working in a massive company or a very small company that is on a very bouncy ADSL connection.
That doesn't explain why s/he would have a Rogers Cable DHCP assigned address one late evening (*in Toronto?) and a totally unknown unalloted (now) IP address a little later.
It doesn't really make a lot of sense for 'GP' to have dropped her/his Cable account for a Dial-up ISP that has since gone broke, and thus lost their net-block from ARIN.
That scenario is a total WAG because I haven't done any checking to see if that net-block was _ever_ assigned.
If it wasn't then that casts _significant_ doubt on the reliability on that sites IP display.
Cheers,
lance
* Note: I put Toronto as a question because I read somewhere that the router for the subnet in question is actually in Ottawa. I don't know that though and I don't know how to find out. (traceroute fails on me)
Lance, so does GP have the relevant IP address or not?
No idea, but I'm leaning to no. Maybe 'GP' is a traveling salesperson or buyer who bounces around and uses his clients/suppliers, different sales outlets, etc Internet connections.
That would explain the different IP's, the different net-blocks, the large space between IP's when on the same net-block, and the potentially different geographical locations.
Cheers,
lance
Addendum, course that raises questions regarding the time-stamps. I doubt he was "working" at midnight. :)
Lance,
I'm calling bullshit here. Rather than admit that someone had the IP other than Warman, you're making up a fantasy tale. Did your alleged travelling salesman pay Warman a vist, mnaybe sell him some fuel? Hey, maybe HE's the one that wrote that racist message on Warman's computer when Warman was in the john.
RB:
I don't know Klatt from a whole in the ground. I do know that the evidence you presented here wasn't much.
I am glad to see that you are confident in your conclusions. I trust BCL shares your confidence - some blog owners get nervous about these kinds of things.
The personal insult seemed unnecessary, but if it made you feel better...
I'm stunned that there are so many "conservatives" willing to stick their neck out trying to defend these 2 "experts".
Observed: multiple IP's attributed to the same author.
Postulate: author used all IP's.
Theorize: traveling salesman
Conclusion: bullshit (as you rightly point out)
So, which part do you think is wrong? Could it be the observed 'facts'?
Cheers,
lance
I think there's a lesson here: Don't post nasty factual assertions about people unless you are really sure the facts are correct.
Oh, c'mon, rabbit. The real lesson is to be quiet when one is obviously uninformed.
Although your "concern" is duly noted.
Lance,
Well, for one thing your theory seems to imply that your travelling salesman showed up at Warman's house to sell him something.
Remember, CheersLance is from Delisle; and although that doesn't prove anything, well...
Postulate: Lance is from Delisle and Kate McMillan is from Delisle.
Theorise: They both belong to the same coven.
Conclusion: No additional virgins needed for blood sacrifices.
Now...let's work on the facts...
I don't know Klatt from a whole in the ground. I do know that the evidence you presented here wasn't much.
As a rabbit one would think you'd be an expert on holes in the ground.
When a judge reaches a conclusion it's after weighing over a great deal of evidence.
You are more than welcome to write to The Honourable Mr. Justice Blais and ask him to supply you with the evidence you seek. You are also more than welcome to do a modicum of research yourself.
Curiously, there is NO evidence I can find online to suggest that Mr. Klatt is a Christian of any kind, let alone someone who fits Ms. Fournier's definition (one which excludes the overwhelming majority of practicing Christians in Canada). Perhaps you should take that up with Ms. Fournier. For I am well acquainted with her religious beliefs, and to be considered a Christian by her is to be accused of posessing truly vile beliefs and morality.
Lance. Whatever the background behind DP's IP usage, it is not all that difficult to imagine reasons that this happened -- one of these is at home; one at work; one at his inlaws; etc.
Nonetheless, he used the same IP as 90sAREover did. Therefore he is either identical to 90sAREover or he isn't. If he isn't, neither is lucy (=Warman), since once 90sAREover lost his IP, the odds of it being randomly reassigned to him are infinitismal.
If DP = 90sAREover, these may or may not be identical to lucy (=Warman). But in order to believe that you have to suppose that Warman was into racing, which doesn't seem likely.
Alternately, we can disbelieve the log details that are before our eyes. But if we do that, why do we believe the log details that are over at FD? Where do these come from?
No where was I talking about Lucy, or Warman, the 90's handle or anything that happened in November. All I was talking about was an author named 'GP' over a week or so in September.
There's enough weirdness in the four postings I pointed out on that site, in September 2003, to seriously question whether or not that websites display of IP addresses is accurate. It wasn't to 'prove' anyone had any particular IP address.
FWIW, those were the _first_ four I found. Who knows, maybe the site randomizes IP addy's to 'protect' it's members.
Buckets, four different IP addresses? In four posts? Reasonable?
Cheers,
lance
Lance. You're right. If you look now, you'll see that I've posted to the board. I posted via a TOR exit node (217.157.63.36, in Denmark). The IP published at the site is 87.106.188.238, in Germany.
So my apologies to all, but this doesn't get Warman off the hook.
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