Friday, August 26, 2011

BCers Vote To Remain Dippy Hippys

With the increased cost of doing business in that province brought about by today's vote against a harmonized sales tax, BC citizens will all have plenty of time not working to eat magic mushrooms and cavort with the Orcas. And, oh yeah, Starchildren, that 1.6 billion the rest of the nation gave you to implement the changeover?  We want it back, so I guess its coming out of your asses.

Update: The Federal NDP sees it differently.  They figure its cool for the province's citizens to be deadbeats.

33 comments:

Sean Cummings said...

Well the BC Libs did lie to their hippie brethren. I mean this is a referendum on the Libs as much as it is on the HST itself. So if I read your posting correctly, a bunch of shroom eating hippies in BC voted out a tax that was brought forth via nefarious means and it's the hippies' fault they get to now reap what they sow.

Interesting.

Jymn Parrett said...

Yikes, has BCL become a Hippie-punching Conservative? Myself, the sun is shining. Think I'll light up and zone out. That's what we do in BC, you know.

double nickel said...

This was absolutely a referendum on the BC Liberals (ie neocons). There is a price to pay for deliberately lying to the voters.

The Mound of Sound said...

Relax Jymn. BCL's just pissed off that a lot of his Big City Ontarians are now going to be wondering if they shouldn't follow our lead and nail the Ontario Liberal government for their HST. I think BC has given Queen's Park a migraine. That's surprising since Ontario, presumably, can pick up all those entrepreneurs who'll be flocking out of BC. Yeah, right.

Tof KW said...

Jymn Parrett said...
Yikes, has BCL become a Hippie-punching Conservative?

No, just that unlike the Dippers, the Grits actually understand something about economics.

And yes British Columbia does now owe the taxpayers of Canada $1.6 billion.

Jymn Parrett said...

I should have posted a smiley face at the end of my comment. All's fine here. Just having a little fun.

The Mound of Sound said...

$1.6 billion? No problem. We'll just levy a head tax on all you Easterners who, after finishing your productive taxpaying days back there, think it's just dandy to move here and sign on for our social services. Let's put it this way, BC'ers don't head to Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba or Ontario to retire.

Lenny said...

"...unlike the Dippers, the Grits actually understand something about economics."

Like how, if you combine two taxes and then apply it to everything, including many things that only recieved one of the taxes, it will magically be revenue neutral.

Fred from BC said...

Tof KW said...

No, just that unlike the Dippers, the Grits actually understand something about economics.


But ethics and honesty still give you some trouble, obviously.

This wasn't about the money at all. We know it's going to cost us...we just don't care. This was about something much more important than the money, but I know what an exercise in futility it would be to attempt to teach a Liberal (particularly one as demonstrably obtuse as you, T...) about such things, so I won't waste my time trying.

We sent a clear message, and the politicians received it.

Shiner said...

Like how, if you combine two taxes and then apply it to everything, including many things that only recieved one of the taxes, it will magically be revenue neutral.

If Lenny is any indication, you nailed it TofKW!

We sent a clear message, and the politicians received it.

Yeah, but shooting yourselves in the foot. Congrats on that.

bigcitylib said...

Lenny, the revenue neutral bit is a different issue from having a harmonized tax in the first place. If the BC NDP didn't think it was revenue neutral, they should have promised to make it so after they won next election. Instead they chose to blow up the whole system. Might as well have another drink now, lad. Tomorrow comes the hangover.

David C. said...

Excuse me, but Ontario is a have not province. We in BC subsidize you folks and maybe we should start calling for our money back?

Are you some how surprised that the citizens of BC would want to keep the 1.6 billion? It was a bribe, but taxes paid to the federal government by British Columbians are still paid by British Columbians's dollars whether they go to local, regional, provincial or federal authorities.

And that's all the 1.6 billion dollar payment was, a bribe, especially considering that not all provinces who implemented HST got that sort of money (Quebec for instance). It was only given to us because of the referendum and to Ontario because it would've been to grossly political to avoid giving it to you folks while we had a referendum on this issue. Maybe you've been smoking a little too much of our number one export to not see this?

And since when do federal taxes paid by British Columbian tax payers all the sudden belong to "the rest of the country" but not British Columbians?

BTW, if you think it's perfectly alright to blatantly lie to the public, use government and corporate resources to stack the referendum process in favour of keeping HST, and transfer the burden of tax revenue from higher income people to lower/middle income people then by all means keep stewing in your juices.

ridenrain said...

I agree with you on this one. This is a big step backward and forgiving that money sets a huge president.
Since neither Christy or the NDP want to remove the HST, and give back that money, I expect they'll find some loophole or excuse to sweep this under the rug.

sunsin said...

the Grits actually understand something about economics

Which is why, I suppose, Liberal provincial governments have the worst record for balancing provincial budgets, and NDP ones have the best record?

I think this was a victory that many on the left will regret, since a large number of the people voting against the HST were actually voting against paying any tax at all -- the California Prop. 8 syndrome, "gimme, gimme, let someone else pay." But what did anyone expect? Campbell and Co. lied like a carpet about the whole affair. That tends to annoy people, you know? And when people are pissed off, they don't necessarily make the right choices. Most of the blame belongs with the Liberal liars who made this mess in the first place.

Tof KW said...

David C. said...
Excuse me, but Ontario is a have not province. We in BC subsidize you folks and maybe we should start calling for our money back?

Alberta just phoned, they want their "we subsidize you folks" line back.

Seriously David, BC has been a have-not province for at least 50% of it's history, the other times it makes money. Ontario for the first time ever qualifies as a have-not, and only gets something like $750 million. After over 140 years of confederation, do you have any fucking clue how many billions Ontario has invested into this country through equalization payments?

Yours is an increasingly weak argument, to put it politely. And your $1.6 billion bribe angle is just laughable. You obviously never bothered to do any research to see how the HST actually works.


Lenny said...
"Like how, if you combine two taxes and then apply it to everything, including many things that only recieved one of the taxes, it will magically be revenue neutral."

Not sure of the neutrality claims (especially when you add the BC carbon tax) but how HST works is simple. Businesses in BC essentially became PST exempt with the introduction of the HST. This saves them money which they can pass on to consumers in lowering prices, or investing in business expansion. Both simulate the economy and provide for improved job growth over the years.

The poorest of BCers would pay less tax under an HST regime than PST+GST, that was even in a graph in Vander Zalm's own literature ...while the blowhard was claiming the poor get hit the worst.

Bullshit! The people hit the hardest are the rich. Think about it, the HST is a personal consumption tax. The people that consume the most are people who can spend the most.

That shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp. You'd think the Dippers would be all over this, but they'd rather just play politics and tax businesses harder. Ya, that helps the business climate.

The Tories were the ones to realize a harmonized VAT is the fairest and most open tax system (and everyone seem to forget it replaced a hidden manufacturers sales tax). Mulroney took his lumps for it, but he and the PCs were right. The Liberals to their credit grew up on this issue, and likewise support it now too.


Fred from BC said...
"But ethics and honesty still give you some trouble, obviously."

Oh Fred, how am I being unethical or dishonest here? And if you pay attention, you'll notice I'm taking the side of your precious Harper government on this issue.

"This wasn't about the money at all. We know it's going to cost us...we just don't care."

Ya that's a brilliant move. Well done BC. While your at it you should make Bill Vander Zalm your premier again.

The Mound of Sound said...

Sunsin, you got anything to back up your Prop 8 syndrome nonsense? Yes people here were concerned about the extra $350 per family tax grab but it was the way Campbell did it that cinched the opposition. But for that the tax would probably have been accepted. On a 55/45 split, just a five percent swing in the "yes" vote, less than 10% would have salvaged the HST.

And for the rest of you buttholes ranting about wanting your 1.6 billion back, the government has already announced it'll repay it. Christ, what are you, six year olds? As though it was coming out of your pockets.

The Mound of Sound said...

"Bullshit! The people hit the hardest are the rich. Think about it, the HST is a personal consumption tax. The people that consume the most are people who can spend the most."

Actually that's bullshit, TKW. Who uses more toilet paper - the rich guy or the others? It's the middle class that gets hammered. They spend more of their disposable income on tax exigible purchases, not the rich. That's why consumption taxes are inherently regressive. Maybe you should study the facts.

Tof KW said...

The Mound of Sound, please take 15 minutes of your time to review this light-hearted explanatory video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZXu3LXNwEg&feature=player_embedded#!

Start at around the 8:00 minute mark where they use one of Vander Zalm's own quoted reports to reveal the average BC family would pay a whopping net additional tax increase of $44/year.

OK I guess that is an increase on the middle class, but this is nothing compared to how it helps the overall economy, and I urge you to watch this entire video to explain it. And yes the wealthy are the ones affected the most, since they consume the most and receive $0 in HST & income tax credits. Sorry.

David C. said...

Tof KW said......

"Seriously David, BC has been a have-not province for at least 50% of it's history, the other times it makes money. Ontario for the first time ever qualifies as a have-not, and only gets something like $750 million. After over 140 years of confederation, do you have any fucking clue how many billions Ontario has invested into this country through equalization payments?"

You obviously need to take a basic history class. The equalization program has been in effect since 1957 and BC has only received equalization payments for a couple of years in the early 2000s. The fact that you missed this obvious piece of reality makes the rest of your arguments specious at best.

sharonapple88 said...

Excuse me, but Ontario is a have not province. We in BC subsidize you folks and maybe we should start calling for our money back?

Ontario contributes $450 per person to equalization. It will get back $76 per person in equalization payments. Ontario still pays into the system. It just receives something back whereas it received nothing previously.

Tof KW said...

Ontario was bailing out provinces well before the 1957 equalization payments started. Alberta for example tends to forget about being kept afloat during the Great Depression. There's more but why bother, you're obviously on a sectarian crusade against Ontario here.

Terrence said...

The regional conflict (B.C. vs. everyone else, but esp. Ontario) mixed with the political conflict (NDP vs. Liberals) makes this a really interesting discussion.

Fascinating!

sharonapple88 said...

You obviously need to take a basic history class. The equalization program has been in effect since 1957 and BC has only received equalization payments for a couple of years in the early 2000s.

From 2001-2006, but also apparently in the early years as well according to this report.

There were early tax rental agreements between provinces and the federarl government dating back to the 1940s.

(Do people really resent the program? I used to take pride in the fact that Ontario could help out other parts of the country. Sorry for not contributing as much as we used to.)

The regional conflict (B.C. vs. everyone else, but esp. Ontario) mixed with the political conflict (NDP vs. Liberals) makes this a really interesting discussion.

True. But in a very depressing way.

sharonapple88 said...

Relax Jymn. BCL's just pissed off that a lot of his Big City Ontarians are now going to be wondering if they shouldn't follow our lead and nail the Ontario Liberal government for their HST.

The HST in Ontario was matched with an income tax break for the lowest earners and othe tax credits that made it revenue neutral. (Ontario has the lowest tax rate for lowe
An article on the report here. People have been receiving cheques from the provincial government since last year. As far as I know, similar things were not done in British Columbia, one report showed that unless you were making less than $10,000 you'll pay more. The difference between the way B.C. and Ontario implemented the HST may explain the different reactions the people in the provinces had to it.

sharonapple88 said...

And that's all the 1.6 billion dollar payment was, a bribe, especially considering that not all provinces who implemented HST got that sort of money (Quebec for instance).

Quebec's case is interesting. Part of the reason provinces like B.C., Ontario, and New Brunswick were advanced money for the HST was because they were giving the federal government control of the sales tax. Quebec still administers the QST and GST. They also get paid by the federal government for this. Quebec also gets some extra revenue from the QST being applied to the GST (check out the page - the Qu├ębec sales tax (QST), which is calculated at a rate of 8.5% on the sale price plus GST). (This isn't how the HST is organized in the other provinces.)

sharonapple88 said...

Ontario has the lowest tax rate for lowe

Incomplete sentence. :P (Sorry, multi-tasking.)

Ontario now has the lowest tax rate in the country for the first $37,106 of taxable income.

The Mound of Sound said...

Here's an idea. If you're not from BC, accept that your notions may not be particularly valid here. You're focused on but one issue, the HST. Much as it may cloud the brilliant clarity of your Eastern vision, we're dealing with a host of associated issues, the HST being just one. The HST, for us, is one element in a matrix that involves BC Ferries, BC Hydro and a host of related issues. From your distant perch it's easy to pick this apart but that's why I've used the term "butthole." Stay out of your business; it's none of yours to judge. You have an abundance of your own issues to resolve.

Shiner said...

Stay out of your business; it's none of yours to judge. You have an abundance of your own issues to resolve.

Oh bull shit. Nobody is allowed to comment on political affairs in other provinces? How about other countries? Should Canadian newspapers no longer offer opinions on American electoral politics? European economic woes? London riots? Get off your perch.

And no, this wasn't about many issues, despite the rhetoric. It was, quite literally, about one issue. You don't punish Campbell, sitting quite comfortably at Grosvenor Square, by taking a chainsaw to your knee.

Tof KW said...

Well that's funny, because from what I've heard the actual referendum question was just about the HST.

Between you and Fred from BC, this has provided me with some valuable insight into the minds of the BC electorate, and it transcends party affiliation. And I thought only les Quebecois confuse the referendum questions.

sharonapple88 said...

Mos: Stay out of your business; it's none of yours to judge. You have an abundance of your own issues to resolve.

Shiner: Oh bull shit. Nobody is allowed to comment on political affairs in other provinces? How about other countries? Should Canadian newspapers no longer offer opinions on American electoral politics? European economic woes? London riots?

We could add Alberta's tar sand project, Mayor Ford, and Bachman's appeal to Amerians to the list I suppose people could stay out of.... to be honest, I don't think people have to be from Toronto, or even live in the GTA, to wonder what the hell's going on in Toronto lately.

Anyway, if anything, the provinces should be trying to learn from each other. It's interesting to compare the HST in Ontario and B.C. They weren't implemented in the same way. Of course there were probably other things at work here -- throw them out so we can better understand the situation.

(Missing link from early on the B.C.'s HST not being great for people who made over $10,000 a year in B.C..)

Lenny said...

Sorry Shiner, was the irony a little to subtle for ya?

BCL,
It wasn't the NDP that led the HST revolt - it was the BC Liberals' own base. The NDP just took the oportunity to join the bandwagon and make political hay.

TofKW,
You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

David C. said...

sharonapple88 said... "(Do people really resent the program? I used to take pride in the fact that Ontario could help out other parts of the country. Sorry for not contributing as much as we used to.)"

I don't resent the equalization program. I consider myself Canadian far before I consider myself a British Columbian. And I'm certainty not one of those deluded "greatest place on earth people." In fact I love eastern Canada (sorry, Montreal is way cooler than Toronto though). I think equalization is an important aspect of the Canadian federation so that everyone can enjoy an equivalent level of services.

The point I was making, which I thought rather obvious, is that the people who've posted about "BC'ers voting to remain dippy hippys" are absurdly misinformed about the HST, and specifically about the HST issue in BC. And their blinders about the issue have led to silly claims such as the initial title of this blog post, or ignoring the political ramifications of trying to fuck over the population hours after being relected, or trying to propagandize about the economic impacts of the HST referendum.

For instance, did you know that BC has lagged behind other provinces in retail sale growth by an entire two percentage points since the HST was introduced? Oh, but apparently it's good for the economy according to the propaganda.

As such insolent demands for "their" 1.6 billion dollars back (as if BC'ers don't pay federal tax?!?) is just so pathetic it's ridiculous. Especially when said posters from exotic locations such as Kitchner, Waterloo, or East Hawkesbury that live in a province that is getting more and more from being in confederation than it's giving back. Whereas we get nothing, but somehow you folks want "your money" back? LOL.

Honestly, is it jealousy because we can vote on this issue and you can't? Perhaps if you're so jealous you should vote for a government that would introduce referenda initiative? Don't worry, you won't turn into California. This is the first time the referenda initiative has been successful in BC and it's been around since 1991.

Unknown said...

well.... My ass is now firmly pointed in your direction and you can have everything coming from it.

also....Have a nice day!