Friday, June 06, 2008

Dion Redeemed?

Seeing the Liberals turtle all Winter and Spring has been painful to watch.

Having Dion whip the vote over C-484 and kill it would be sweet relief.

Mind you, watching a handful of Socially Conservative Liberal MPs tell Dion to blow it out his ass and vote with the Tories to pass C-484 would be even more painful to watch.

And watching Dion have to renege at the last minute to avoid the above-noted spectacle would be worth about a three-bucket barf.

So this vow is a real opportunity and a real risk, one that I am nevertheless glad Mr. Dion has taken.

(On the other hand, it looks like Harper and Co. are going to let a bunch of bills get ground up in the wheels of the legislative process. Maybe C-484 will be one of them. If it expires at night in the Senate, that is the best possible outcome. And those old guys up there are clever. Sometimes they only appear to be sleeping, when in fact they are in deep deliberations.)

21 comments:

jaybird said...

Ok. I wouldn't say he would be redeemed, I would say finally doing his job. But OK.

What is the likelihood? Because Liberal talk is all tough about Bill c10, Bill c50. etc. In the end I will believe it when I see it.

PS - would also like to see Dion's weak-ass self try and whip 20 odd anti-choice Libs. You have a lot of them and do you really think the Scarborough gang (Wappel, McTeague, Mackay, Karygiannis) just to name four would vote against this legislation? If they do it will only because to them c484 is a half-measure and DOESN'T ban or limit abortion directly.

Ti-Guy said...

You have a lot of them and do you really think the Scarborough gang (Wappel, McTeague, Mackay, Karygiannis) just to name four would vote against this legislation?

Why don't you ask them? Oh right, Dippers don't have the guts to confront the people who actually matter; they prefer hissing at other Canadians.

I recommend you approach Dan McTeague. He's very responsive to hiss and provides a rather rewarding spectacle. At least that was my experience the last time I took the hysteric on.

Johnathon said...

Too bad Ti-guy wasn't the victim of a late term abortion Canada.

How nice it would have been to see his 7 month old pregnancy come to an end with a pair os scissors and a vacuum.

Ti-Guy said...

You really need Haloscan, BCL.

A certain ISP would find this crack/cocaine addict's IP useful, if anything.

bigcitylib said...

Jonathon, glad you admit its really all about abortion.

If you're going to act like a prick all day today I'm going to get your brother Jermo Sapien to slap you around.

jaybird said...

Johnathan: Sweet mother of god (or whatever) it is one thing to be partisan but you folks that slag people with such offensive personal attacks - not funny and not necessary guys.

Ti-guy: once again I would suggest that the NDP Caucus has consistently stood up to the Conservatives and yes we will continue to differentiate our policies and our values from those of the LPC. Although the NDP has people of faith in the Caucus they believe in the basic principle of separation of church and state.

You can insult me and the NDP as much as you like but you cannot deny that there were 31 Liberal MPs that voted against equal marriage for lesbian and gay Canadians and you cannot deny that there are roughly 20-25 anti-choice liberals sitting behind Dion (that is when any Liberal MP bothers to show up in the HOC to do their jobs).

Reality Bites said...

Let's face reality. Dion has no power over the Scarborough gang. Neither did Chr├ętien, neither did Martin. Even if you're PM, and not opposition leader, you can't threaten someone like Wappel with not making it into cabinet because he's such a monumental douchebag that he'd never make it in regardless of how he votes.

Many of the anti-choicers aren't running again, so he can't even threaten not to sign their nomination papers.

That said, the presence of these people in caucus did not prevent Martin from winning the marriage vote in 2005, nor did it prevent Harper from losing (as he desperately hoped) the marriage revote in 2006.

All Dion has to do is make sure all the pro-choice MPs show up and this abortion of a bill will die as it deserves.

Jaybird, as we've seen in the NDP with Bev Desjarlais, there is NOTHING a leader can do to actually force a member to vote the way s/he wants. Yes, there are more bigoted assholes in the Liberal caucus than in the NDP caucus, but that's largely because there's more of everything there.

And of course it should also be noted that Peter Stoffer voted for C-484, so kindly cut the holier-than-thou crap you're spewing.

Mike said...

"How nice it would have been to see his 7 month old pregnancy come to an end with a pair os scissors and a vacuum."

Which never happens in Canada anyway, unless the mother's life is in danger or the fetus isn't viable.

Never. No doctor in Canada performs "abortion on demand" after 20 weeks, not even Morgantaler. So why do we need a law to prevent people from doing what not one is doing?

Fuck of Jon\Biff. Just fuck right off you dishonest twit.

And yes, like BCL, gald to see you are admitting this is all about abortion.

Doubting Thomas said...

Just to be the voice of dissent, in this case I found Jonathon's comment to be really funny...because it's soooo wrong.

Not to say it's even keel, but I've scanned the blog and noticed ti-guy dishes out his/her fair share of below-the-belt (around knee level) barbs.

Jermo Sapiens said...

A couple of points:

BCL: fuck that shit, I am not associated in any way with the illiterate, angry, and conservative version of ti-guy known as jonathon.

Mike: late term abortions happen in Canada - I didnt know about it, until I saw a documentary from french CBC:

here
scroll all the way down, the description is in french but mentions that abortions up to 23 weeks are performed in Canada.


So having been caught promoting falsehoods, I'll give you the same treatment you give others:

Fuck off you uninformed idiot, learn to read and write before you spout bull shit you illiterate fuck.

Ti-Guy said...

I would suggest that the NDP Caucus has consistently stood up to the Conservatives and yes we will continue to differentiate our policies and our values from those of the LPC.

Really? I never knew that!

You can insult me and the NDP as much as you like but you cannot deny that there were 31 Liberal MPs that voted against equal marriage for lesbian and gay Canadians and you cannot deny that there are roughly 20-25 anti-choice liberals sitting behind Dion (that is when any Liberal MP bothers to show up in the HOC to do their jobs).

I didn't know that either!

Take your scolding elsewhere. Or, like I said, communicate with the people who actually matter. Post the results here. It would be a victory for participatory democracy and would add real substance to the dialogue of BCL's blog.

I didn't vote for the Scarborough retards...I voted for the Liberal who said "nea" to C-484 on the first reading.

Ti-Guy said...

Just to be the voice of dissent, in this case I found Jonathon's comment to be really funny...because it's soooo wrong.

It won't be so funny when he cokes out and posts them hundreds of times in a row.

Not to say it's even keel, but I've scanned the blog and noticed ti-guy dishes out his/her fair share of below-the-belt (around knee level) barbs.

I think that comment was a word-for-word plagiarism of my mine. I often suggest certain people should have been aborted. And that's only because I've spoken to their parents.

...I, myself, remain my parents' pride and joy. Especially now that they need diaper-changing.

bigcitylib said...

He's right though, TG, the NDP has a better hold on its people than the Libs. I imagine the discipline the leadership manages to exert over their rank and file is a double-edged sword, but certainly on this issue it has enhanced their cred (other than Stoffer, but he was read the riot act afterward, wasn't he?).

Don't know how they do it since they are essentially a permanent opposition party.

Reality Bites said...

BCL, if you don't vote the way the party wants, you're not allowed into the square dancing parties.

What's more fascinating is the control Harper exercises over the sizable part of his caucus who are as bad as Wappel, et al, and bad on even more issues. You'd think some who aren't running again would start shooting off their mouths. Guess they're hoping for a cozy patronage appointment to supplement their pensions.

Ti-Guy said...

He's right though, TG, the NDP has a better hold on its people than the Libs.

Right. That, by itself, would have gotten Canada revised civil marriage legislation, I'm sure.

It's the shrieking at the point where it simply doesn't matter and directed at people who can't do anything that's the issue. And needless to say, it's not very effective in terms of people who could conceivably vote NDP.

"Vote NDP, you Fucking Liberal Whores!" doesn't seem very persuasive, for some reason.

jaybird said...

Ti-Guy: wow so angry...sheesh. No one is scolding just laying out facts. Your defensiveness and attack of me, even while I criticize johnathan for so offensively attacking you, speaks volumes... regardless of your ad hominem attacks on the NDP and NDP commenters I will continue to debate in this forum.

BCL: yes Stoffer voted for the bill initially with the admittedly lame excuse that he will initially support all private members bills on principle because he wants to further empower MPs. yes he was read the riot act.

Yes Bev voted against equal marriage and yes she lost her critic portfolio and soon lost the NDP nomination and the eventual election back in the riding.

Ti-Guy said...

No one is scolding just laying out facts.

Bullshit. You're scolding. Liberals have been hearing it for over two years now.

"Laying out facts." Right. You'd have to be unconscious not to be already aware of the facts you rushed over here to lay out.

As if Liberals don't know about the dinosaurs in their own party. As if we don't know what happened to Stoffer and Desjarlais. We're all just waiting around for Dippers to set us straight about recent history.

It's the same ranting and hiss I can read for myself on NDP blogs. And since I mostly check political blogs through Progressive Bloggers, I do get exposed to it...in blaring blog post titles: "Once again, the Liberal Whores have Failed Canada!1!"

*sigh* I miss Ed Broadbent. At least he yelled at the people who mattered. Layton just addresses them petutantly as if they're not even there, even when they're right in front of him.

jaybird said...

If you would check out the NDP website and there press releases you would see that the NDP goes after the Cons and yes distinguishes itself from the Liberal Party. That is necessary when a party is reaching out to potential supporters.

In terms of the progressive bloggers, I would suggest that there are a legion of bloggers who are not NDP bloggers per se, who are profoundly frustrated with Dion and the LPC caucus.

Finally, Ed Broadbent was very supportive of the current NDP party. So much so that he came out of retirement and ran for Ottawa Centre with Jack as Leader.

So again, the NDP will continue to stand up to the Conservative Agenda, will continue to advocate for poor and working Canadians, will continue to fight for a greener environment by making corporate polluters pay. And in the case of bill C484 and bill c10 will continue to VOTE against socon attempts to marry religious and legislative agendas.

Ti-Guy said...

So again, the NDP will continue to stand up to the Conservative Agenda, will continue to advocate for poor and working Canadians, will continue to fight for a greener environment by making corporate polluters pay.

Well, I'm converted.

Reality Bites said...

"So again, the NDP will continue to stand up to the Conservative Agenda, will continue to advocate for poor and working Canadians, will continue to fight for a greener environment by making corporate polluters pay."

And yet, it won't do a lick of good in actually preventing or causing any of those things, nor will it accomplish a thing in terms of moving the NDP closer to forming official opposition or goverment.

Let's also not forget that an outspoken, unapologetic homophobe (Ed Schreyer) was welcomed in as a "star" candidate without even so much as having to make a fake apology like Tom Lukiwski.

I sure won't forget being called an "affliction" that people need to be protected from by an NDP candidate who flatly refused to apologize. It was a disgusting act from a disgusting man. And Layton should never have let him run with that on his record.

jaybird said...

As a member of the LGBT community I will never condone Schreyer but I will hold up my party's voting record on equal marriage to any other party. Ed was a dinosaur but he was one not 31 which is the number of Liberal MPs who voted against equal marriage.

I also was quite active working for equal marriage and I can assure you that activists in the campaign never doubted that the NDP caucus would be whipped (albeit softly). Desjarlais was disciplined for her vote against and her riding association made sure to choose a different candidate for the election.

None of this can progressive liberals say about the LPC and how they have dealt with gay rights since the charter. So not just on equal marriage, but fighting George Hislop all the way to the supreme court over the pension issue, forcing the community to fight in the courts for every single gain that has been made.

So spare me your delusions about the supposed importance of Ed Schreyer in regards to defining the values and record of the NDP.

Your shrill and snide response simply reveals the vulnerability of the LPC on the supposed core issue of human rights.

But of course it goes back to supporting a party (LPC) that talks a great deal but seems allergic to taking action.