The federal Conservatives will not "abuse" the right to make pieces of legislation matters of confidence in their minority government, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Friday.
"We will use our mandate wisely," Harper told reporters in Ottawa. "I don't think you can consider something confidence that isn't significant enough to fight an election over if you were defeated on it."
...felled by the sheer idiocy of his original position, I imagine. Hopefully, this back-down takes some of the wind from the sails of the pro self-immolation wing of the Liberal Party.
Lets just all wait and see what the throne speech actually contains, shall we? So far it sounds like small-bore stuff with a lot of insults aimed at Dion to cover up its inherent vacuity. Because, remember, Harper is as much constrained a minority parliament as the other parties are.
And remember, losing honorably is still losing. A "good fight" is a fight you win. Retreat now and you can fight again in the Spring, or next Fall, or Spring 2009. If Harper gets his majority, then 2011 is the next important date on the calender.
As for this clown, ignore his taunts. He's been holding up "his end" for the Tory government for almost two years ago, and he's pissed. Apparently, Harper gave him the smelly end.
30 comments:
Count me amongst that wing then. I find it appalling we'd allow a Throne Speech to sail through declaring that "Kyoto targets are unattainable" when we clearly oppose that viewpoint.
Scott,
You don't have a clue what the throne speech actually says, nor does anyone else.
Perhaps Harper has finally realized that if his Throne Speech passes, threatening that any vote on legislation based on the Throne Speech being a confidence motion lets the opposition set the agenda for the ensuing election.
Now Harper can back down from issues that his core supports but won't fly with the majority of Canadians by simply saying "oh, that wasn't a confidence issue".
With that said, Harper really has to learn to think before he starts talking.
ES,
Exactly! So, my bet is, he passes some tax stuff that everyone likes, he passes a few Law and Order type bills for the droolers back home which he and everyone else expects to get held up forever in the senate, he arranges something around the edges about spending in provincial jurisdictions to sweet talk Quebec, he trash-talks Kyoto a bit but nevertheless makes a few token green gestures...
etc! another minimalist sitting with alot of big talk.
End of the day? He peaks at 37%. Sure it sucks to be in opposition. Sucks worse to be in opposition in a Majority government. I wish people would get that through their heads.
He has not caved on Jack. Go watch his press conference again. Harper even lined out the five major postions, and that things coming from that would be confidence motion.
You libs are as dumb as the press.
Actually, a canny move to backtrack. He first said every vote will be a confidence vote, so that Dijon and crew would be on tenterhooks all session. Now he said not all will be confidence motions - but are you going to be around with enough votes when it happens? Harper's still in control here, but he looks more 'conciliatory' with this latest move.
Pass Dion the Pepto.
"Retreat now and you can fight again in the Spring, or next Fall, or Spring 2008."
Retreat now has consequence, to pretend it doesn't seems counter-intuitive. IMHO, the chances of future failure are better if Liberals allow themselves to cower when challenged in such a profound way. I don't see how you get the "winning conditions" when you create an environment where the Liberals look scared, the leader weak.
You are right to say we need to wait and see what the throne speech contains, but hiding in a cave if challenged is suicide. I don't subscribe to the "timid wing" of the Liberal Party :)
I don't subscribe to the "timid wing" of the Liberal Party :)
Neither do I. Can't some of the Liberals start picking on the Cons for being fat/drunk/stupid? It's not like it's a lie or anything...
I agree with Steve. IF the Throne Speech contains what CBC sources says it will, we need to be all there en masse and vote this miserable Throne Speech down.
If we wait til the Spring, Harper releases a goody goody feel-good Budget.. would you rather we go then? I don't.
IF we give in on this Throne Speech with that provision in there, we are implicitly acknowledging that Harper is right on Kyoto, as well as his criticisms of it. Polls show 2/3 of Canadians believe this government can do a lot more for fighting climate change. A majority feel even if we don't meet Kyoto targets , we should still be striving to catch up to them or to support the treaty.
We should show Canadians we strongly believe in this. Any action otherwise gives us the label of either having no principles or the weak label. I say we go now. Harper did so with no guarantees of winning in 2006 for the same reasons, and also with leadership questions, and look where he is now. We need to do the same thing;
Liberals need to stop cowering of Harper's shadow and take him on.
Scott,
My point is: what makes you think the next "goody goody feel-good Budget" will do Harper any better than the last one?
And: if we go now, how do you know the Que. wing doesn't fold like a cheap suitcase?
Patience, Grasshopper.
The internal polls that the Conservatives have been doing since the beginning of September must not be going the way they want them to. It must really piss them off to see their main opponent in disarray but they are still not opening up a "safe" lead.
"End of the day? He peaks at 37%. Sure it sucks to be in opposition. Sucks worse to be in opposition in a Majority government."
Careful what you wish for....
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=ea764103-c867-46df-9658-fb4c9714a2dc
Have a great time digesting this poll over the weekend.;)
bcl
We have already heard Conservatives musing about the "biggest taxcut in Canadian history", which is a far cry more effective than last year's spending spree. If the Cons are able to put serious money in the pockets of Canadians in the next budget, we will have our tail between our legs until the fall of 09.
There are many signs that Harpr is scared (ok wingnuts, I know I hit nerve, so wail away!) He is fragmented, his speeches are all over the place, he is frantically campaigning tossing all kinds of ridiculous nonsense in every speech he gives without a sense of audience.
He knows if there is another election, he could lose, he also knows that even if he wins it will be with another slim majority. There are signs of dissent in his ranks and that means win or lose the next election, there is a very good chance his own party will give him the boot.
He keeps taunting Dion, trying to corner him into looking weak because Steve has nothing to excite voters enough to guarantee a majority. I agree whole heartedly - back Dion, badger Liberal MPs into showing a strong, united front, insist Dion stick to what he has said and not fold. I think he has learned and will not back down.
As for the oodles of tax cuts - not likely, and this should come out as well. Look at the massive amounts of money Steve has been promising to anyone he considers bribeable - Nova Scotia, for instance. That money has to come from somewhere, and the opposition should point this out.
I am also encouraged that much of the press often includes a line or two linking these money handouts to pre-election bribes.
900ft jesus said...
"There are many signs that Harpr is scared (ok wingnuts, I know I hit nerve, so wail away!) He is fragmented, his speeches are all over the place, he is frantically campaigning tossing all kinds of ridiculous nonsense in every speech he gives without a sense of audience.
He knows if there is another election, he could lose, he also knows that even if he wins it will be with another slim majority. There are signs of dissent in his ranks and that means win or lose the next election, there is a very good chance his own party will give him the boot."
Do you read this back to yourself before you hit the publish button?
Are we on the same planet?
Do you know ANYTHING about politics?
Bueller?
ya, Harper caves.
Caves up to 40%
morons . . time to loosen the handgrip on your family jewels and let some blood flow back to your brain.
ti-guy is the exception - he can keep his lip lock on his peter for a while longer yet.
One good poll for Harper from a traditional polster who gives Conservatives higher then normal #s as it is, and whose methodology has to be questioned with its big changes in numbers does not a strategy make.
I don't change my mind or get scared b ecause Ipsos comes out with that poll. I still say bring Harper down.
ya, Harper caves.
Caves up to 40%
morons . . time to loosen the handgrip on your family jewels and let some blood flow back to your brain.
ti-guy is the exception - he can keep his lip lock on his peter for a while longer yet.
Funny how most Conservatives are fucking pigs like this. If our timid media ever decided to shine the light on the fascistic vermin that make up the rank-and-file of the Harper party, after that exercise, I'd be surprised if the Party weren't declared illegal.
Layton's a clown ???for what believing political Party's should stand up for what they believe."Holding up his end for the Tory gov" ? WTF...
So when the Libs back track on Kyoto,thats leadership, principles,what ???
At least Scott gets it.
Funny, a wingnut quoting a poll. They were quick enough to disparage polls when they weren't in Steve's favour.
Poll shifts don't worry me much unless they show a sustained pattern. The House sits next week, and if Dion acts instead of reacting, Steve will be wiggling. Conscam, Afghanistan and Karzai's talks of dealing with the Taliban as our soldiers risk their lives, IPCC coming out shortly with a new report will bring up the Bush/Harper ties, investigations into Mayor Larry O'Brien's bribes linked to the PM's inner circle, Danny Williams, well, I could go on, but we will see, as long as the opposition shows some strength. Harper can't hide forever. Coward that he is.
Public polls lag internal polls because they are taken over a set period whereas political parties tend to use tracking polls.
Both of these public polls were taken either last weekend or early last week so they are already out of date. As well, most of these polls are done for news organizations who commission polls to keep a media narrative going. Political parties on the other hand use polls for decision making so they actually ask for polls that are more "objective".
We have had two public polls showing an uptick in Conservative support yet Mr. Harper takes a more conciliatory approach.
This from a guy who only take such an approach when it suits his political purposes and never when he believes that he is dealing from a position of strength.
Something is up.
It's already be evident that the CONs do Parliamentary theatre in the Vincent Price method -- horror and horrible.
I'm in agreement with bcl here, that to be the first opposition to ever vote down a Throne Speech -- whether it includes slaps and the wave of a glove or not -- would be counter-productive. This is the PM trying to frame things and the public, even with MsM lazy job of reporting it, will see much of it for what it is.
He'll promise the moon, insult the liberal lineage like before, but with all those cautionary storm clouds ahead -- afghanistan, the economy, his tepid environmental effort -- we should make him force the election as close to our terms as possible.
As the good guy sez, patience.
Wow, you anti-Harper guys must take really good drugs to think this stuff up.
Maybe the simplest explanation is the one to go with in this case.
Harper pushes all buttons to see which turns the machine on and Dion, Layton and the irrelevant other scrambling to find which machine Harper's trying to turn on.
There, an analysis full of poli-babble to match that which is being spewed here.
Hey evil lab-coat guy, do you really think Dion and the Liberals of today can think that far ahead? Set the agenda! They can't even set their watches to the same time.
Ti-guy, yeah that'll work. Get Scott Reid to start trumpeting that anyone but Liberals are fat, drunk and stupid. Worked last time, no?
Conjures up a saying about repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
ottlib, the Cons are sure acting real pissed off while the Libs and Dippers are quite confident in their internal polling (if they can afford any, hee-hee!).
If any of ya had any idea how to defeat Harper and the Cons, you'd realize it takes ideas, ideals and so on, just the things you fault the Cons for not having.
Not D&D type maneuvering and playing political doublespeak about confidence votes and such.
It seems to me Harper is playing all the other leaders like low level novices and sitting back and watching the fun.
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