Saturday, December 01, 2007

I Doubt Even Conservatives Will Buy His Baloney

John Turley-Ewart (who?) on Bill C-6 and Dion's response to it:

"Indeed, one has to prove one's identity to buy an airplane ticket, alcohol or cigarettes. Proving one's identity to vote — the most important exercise within a democracy — should not be treated with such disregard. Mr. Dion could have advocated legislation that would improve the integrity of our democracy, by opposing voting by mail and proxy and while wearing a veil.

Such a move would have presented the Liberals as agents for positive change, a party that respected the sanctity of the democratic process. Instead, Mr. Dion turned his back on principle. "

Well, of course, while Dion can "advocate" anything he wants, it is currently Conservative Legislation under consideration, and this legislation does nothing to establish a voter's identity because, as apparently needs to be repeated over and over again, it does not require the newly unveiled face to be matched against any form of photo ID.

Now, perhaps Dion should put forward legislation that 1) requires veiled women to unveil somewhere in the vicinity of the polling booth, 2) fixes the issue of mail-in voting and voting by proxy, where again it is impossible to determine whether the person casting the ballot is who they claim to be. If there is a problem (of voter fraud?) to be solved here, then this kind of legislation would do a better job of it than C-6. But that would certainly not preclude being against C-6.

But is there a problem to be solved? The Bloc Quebecois opposition to C-6 is instructive:

The Bloc Quebecois also opposes the bill but for entirely different reasons. Bloc MPs object to the fact that veiled women will be allowed to uncover their faces privately before female polling officials.

Female polling officers may be hard to find in some of Quebec's small towns, and bringing them in might cost $$$. The Bloc supports the idea of Muslim bashing, in other words, but if its going to cost them to do it, no thanks.


heh said...

So are you going to be supporting it when Dion decides next week that its again a good idea?


Gayle said...

Since when did you have to have proof of ID to buy alcohol and cigarettes? I know you may need to prove your age, if asked (and i assure you I am NEVER asked), but ID?

And the Bloc says they may have trouble finding women in small towns who can act as polling officers? What kind of world do they live in anyway?

I am glad Dion is taking a stance on this - let the rest of the parties fight for the racist vote.

heh said...

"racist vote"

Ahh, race baiting, a liberal's favorite way to try to silence legitimate debate.

There are no real dilemmas in our country regarding the degree to which new cultures, very different from ours, should be assimilated and the extent to which, if any, our laws should be tailored to suit the religios needs of a minority of the population, according to Gayle and her ilk.

Just a simple dichotomy: agree with whatever the liberal view of the day is



The icing on the cake:

It wasn't "racist" until today - the day Dion got off board.

Could pandering to racist fears for purely partisan gain be any more obvious that this?

Please Gayle, do keep it up.

Your true colors are shining through.

bigcitylib said...

Actually, heh, if you had read this Blog (and most other Prog Blogs) when Dion was backing the Tories on this you would have seen him given plenty of shit for it.

heh said...


And "racism" bcl,

and racism?

I'd love someone here to point out the "racist" charge to Dion.

No, I think that special label is reserved for conservative foes.

Adds to the debate nicely, don't you think?

Gayle said...

heh - try not to be so foolish.

It is racist indeed to pass legislation that purports to target one group. As BCL points out, lifting the veil does nothing to establish identity, and mail in votes are still permitted.

So yes, this is racist and I have no problem calling it that - as I did in September when Dion supported this.

"There are no real dilemmas in our country regarding the degree to which new cultures, very different from ours, should be assimilated and the extent to which, if any, our laws should be tailored to suit the religios needs of a minority of the population, according to Gayle and her ilk."

That is quite the leap of logic (not that logic seems to be one of your strong points).

There is, in fact, a huge dilemma in our country when it comes to new immigrants - and that is down to the fact we welcome them, but we provide them little assistance in educating them on our social norms or assisting them to assimilate (note - this is NOT about "reasonable accomodation". I have no issue with people retaining their own religious practices).

I word directly with a number of refugee families. For children who have spent their formative years in refugee camps, violence is normalized. Many of these children and youth have been victims of violence, have witnessed violence (like the young Rwandan boy who came home from a soccer game to find his entire family slaughtered), and have perpetrated violence as a means to survive in their war-torn countries. We invite them in and then we do nothing to help them adjust. We do not educate them on our societal norms, yet we react strongly when they do not respect them. Then our politicians start complaining about veils, as if they are important in the grand scheme of things.

So heh, get a grip and get educated. Rather than complain (with the protection of anonymity), why don't you do something positive.

heh said...

Well there we have it.

It's so obviously racist I must be foolish and uneducated for thinking otherwise.

I guess I need to be re "educated" along with the immigrants (love your simple "just educate the immigrants" solution BTW).

Tell me Gayle where is this school on Liberal ideals located?

Holly Stick said...

It's also sexist, as in telling women what they should wear.

Gayle said...

I guess we could stick with the - "just bring the refugees in and then complain when they do not understand our culture" - solution.

How has that been working so far?

Greg said...

"racist vote"

Ahh, race baiting, a liberal's favorite way to try to silence legitimate debate.

Actually it's racist baiting and I for one think it is perfectly ok to bait racists.

heh said...

Iran and Jordan, among other countries that have deep Islamic roots in their pupulace and governement, but also have much experience with veiled voting,

require women to show their faces (to another woman - which according to Sharia law is fine),

I guess they're racist and singling out muslims too eh??

Targeting themselves. Interesting.

Gayle, here's a thought. It's not RACIST to question or contradict particular IDEAS OR BELIEFS.

Beleive it or not, but our country has collective values and ideas that aren't necessarily shared by those in the rest of the world.

And here's another crazy thought: an immigrant's level of "education" may have precious little to do with what they believe in.

It may, just may be that it's not that some groups don't "understand" our culture, but rather they don't agree/believe in the norms and values that comprise our culture.

Parting question:

Are you OK with having sharia law in our country?

And if not, do you consider yourself a racist for so thinking?

heh said...

One more parting question (can't resist) are those who sling insults such as "jesus freak" and other similar degrading phrases towards christians,

that I see so many times on left leaning liberal sites,


Gayle said...

'Gayle, here's a thought. It's not RACIST to question or contradict particular IDEAS OR BELIEFS."

Would you like to point to where I said otherwise?

Back to the point of the post - the legislation is racist as it targets a certain racist group but has not real purpose in doing so, because it does not require voters to identify themselves.

The rest of your garbage is a creation of your own mind.

Gayle said...

That would be "racial" group.

Gayle said...

By the way heh - your defensiveness is telling. I am guessing someone has called you a racist in the past.

heh said...


1) imply I'm a racist (as is anyone who supports the legislation apparantly), then

2) use my objection to say "see, he IS a racist".

Quite the compelling case there.

No. I'm pretty certain I'm no racist. How bout you Gayle? Care to answer my questions?

Here's another more direct one:

Are Christians a race?

And are anti-chritian comments "racist"?

heh said...

You see gail,

you throw around highly charged terms that have huge significance,

but you don't really know what it means in any particular context. Nor do you realize how such a loose application of such a heated charge can be applied to those on your side of the political spectrum.

You know its bad.

And you know you want to try to smear your political adversaries.

So you throw it around, apparantly ignorant of both the underlying meaning, and corrosive effect such slinging has on not only the prevailing political debate, but also to those in our society who currently experience or have experienced, real racism.

So you don't need to try to answer my questions (or more appropriately dance around them).

I think I've proven my point.

Now......where do I get that education you were talking about....

bigcitylib said...


The legislation fails at everything unless the goal is to hassle Muslim women. And when I say fails I mean fails. The Tories have given out several stories as to why they want this legislation passed. The legislation does not do the job of solving the problems they say it is meant to deal with. All it succeeds in doing is to hassle Muslim women. Is that, for you, the point of the law, and if so isn't that racist?

Gayle said...

Biff - I am sure you have proven everything in your own little world, which is exactly where this debate exists.

It must really kill you now that RT is gone -now you have to find some other blogs where you can spout your nonsensical musings.

Gayle said...

BCL - the last coupld of posts from heh have the same style as biff - a common troll on RT's site.

His job is to post his nonsense in an effort to change the channel. I did not take his bait and now he is sad.

There is no point in trying to engage him in any logical discussion. Just thought I would give you a heads up.

heh said...

So, just to be clear,

I'm this dreaded "biff" character,

I'm a racist,

and I'M the one who's sullying this thread, with off topic nonsense.

Nicely done Gail.

heh said...

Apparantly monogamy laws do nothing more than "hassel" Mormons.

Damn racist anti-polygamy laws. You get my point.

Anyway, I'll let you go. Gail, nice "debating" with you.


the dreaded Biff

Anonymous said...

"Racism" is a Marxist term used to silence white people into accepting their own displacement and eventual genocide.

canuckistanian said...

"1) imply I'm a racist (as is anyone who supports the legislation apparantly)"

maybe not. you could just be retarded ;-)....which is nonetheless preferable to being batshit crazy like the above anony.

Anonymous said...

accusations of racism....check

name calling.....check

unwilling to adress any substance of the point.....check

Yup, we're on a left wing blog.

Gayle said...

Trying the change the channel from criticism of the conservatives to attacks on the liberals - check

Twisting one statement into an attack on Christians - check

Making great leaps of logic that 2 plus 2 equals 14 and calling that "substance" - check

Must be a conservative troll

heh said...

Because Gayle doesn't get subtlety:

Islam isn't a race, its a religion.

Just as Christianity isn't a race, its a religion. (Christianity was referred to because some on the left have this rediculous double standard - there are correct religions and not so correct religions, christianity being a current politically incorrect one.)

As a religion Islam is a set of ideals, dogma and values that are particular to the members of the group. They are not inherent to a "race".

What any particular religious group believes in doesn't/shouldn't dictate how our laws are enforced.

In this instance there is no "race" involved - just a belief that by a woman showing her face in public (in particular to men) she shames herself and risks "seducing" men with an uncontrollable sexual urge.

Not even all muslims believe this (as many do not wear full body and facial covers), but only those of a more strict belief.

Just as Gayle is not "racist" for not believing in the right of mormons to be polygamous in our society, and not believing there should be laws to allow them to have more than one wife,

I and many others are not racist for not believing that a particular subset of Muslims that believe a woman should show no part of her body in public, be permitted to keep their face hidden in all contexts, including while voting. (An exception even Iran and Jordan don't permit.)

I understand that you may object to my referring to christian bashing common on the left, as that causes you to confront the obvious double standard that the left employs in their creative use of the "racist" label.

You refused to answer my basic questions because you would be caught in your own bigotry laced assumptions about what is, and what is not, "racist".

Ironically, the root of all real "racism", and bigotry, is ignorance. A trait you seem to possess in great abundance.

Gayle said...

Saying the same thing over and over again without actually addressing the post - check.

Still a conservative troll...

Gayle said...

Biff, if it will make you happy, I amend my original comment to this:

"I am glad Dion is taking a stance on this - let the rest of the parties fight for the bigots' vote."

Now, do try to address the fact the legislation accomplishes nothing but to target this religious group.

Anonymous said...

Good lord, how many inane topics can to post on a weekend?

Anonymous said...

By Gayle's definition:

I'm "bigoted" for not believing Muslim's should be excepted from showing their faces while voting (and also getting into over 18 clubs, buying cigarettes ect.)


She's bigoted for not believing that Mormans be permitted to marry more than one wife.

(Gayle whispering to Bruce Willis while hiding frightened under the table: "....I see bigoted people...they're everywhere")

Gayle said...

Deflecting questions by posting unsubtantiated insults - check