Thursday, December 03, 2009

Tory On Tory Violence Re HST

"As Conservatives, we're supportive of a combined tax. It's not a tax grab... That is a misnomer to mislead the public to get them excited about something that's not accurate." Mike Wallace (MP, Burlington) October 12, 2009 - The Hill Times.

"It's a massive tax reduction for those that employ Ontarians, for those that drive the Ontario economy. It's a politically courageous decision." Dean Del Mastro (MP, Peterborough) March 27, 2009 - Peterborough Examiner.

"Filing one corporate tax return will immediately reduce the paperwork burden for Ontario businesses. Ontario companies of all sizes will benefit from one set of rules, one point of contact, and one tax return. By reducing the time and money Ontario businesses spend on meeting their tax obligations, government is allowing businesses more time to focus on growth and development." Gordon O'Connor (MP, Carleton-Mississippi Mills) May 2, 2008 - Marketwire.

And my favorite, from Building Prosperity in a Canada Strong & Free, authored by Preston Manning and Mike Harris (the man Tim Hudak was cloned from):

"(Ontario is) further encouraged to harmonize (its) provincial sales tax with the federal goods and services tax, which already exempts business inputs. This would provide a double benefit by also reducing by one-half the paperwork required for businesses to collect and remit sales taxes." - Fraser Institute: Building Prosperity in a Canada Strong and Free, 2006.

Meanwhile, recalcitrant Federal Liberals seem to be falling in line.


CanadianSense said...

In agreement Hudak is wrong unless he promises to introduce a Bill to scrap it upon his winning the next election.

Everything else is just noise. What is the alternative being proposed?

He should have asked for more exemptions of a reduction to make combined HST 10%.

Leave the theatrics to the NDP.

Ted Betts said...

It must be so disappointing for journalists lately. They have tried, since September, so very very hard to write a "Liberal Party imploding with dissenssion" narrative and it always seems to just fall so very flat.

First there was the Newfoundlanders voting against the budget, but they've towed the line ever since and have never spoken out against Michael. Tough luck for the journalist.

Then there was the Coderre thing. Yet, the party didn't implode and he's come back into the fold.

Then we had the rumours of three MPs - that's THREE MPs!!!, in case Duffy wasn't audible enough - crossing the floor. How long can Iggy last with such caucus infighting and implosion?!?!? What? It was a made up story by the Conservatives?

Then there was a few MPs voting against the gun registry. Ooooh, here was evidence of deep party friction and dissenssion. What? Not this even? They just voted based on constituent desires?

Then there is this obsession with some Liberal MPs who oppose the HST. Aha! We have it now. The Liberal Party and Igatieff's leadership can't withstand this assault and rebellion. We got him now!! What? Dosanjh just shrugged and said they tried to convince caucus but didn't so they move on? No one storming out of caucus? No rumours of floor crossings but instead assurances they will be voting with the party? Damn, what kind of implosion is this? The Liberals are so out of it now they don't even know how to infight anymore!!!

Notice how throughout all of this that Mr. Anonymous Liberal has not reappeared? Notice how throughout all of this equivalent "dissension" stories in the Conservative ranks - the many Tory MPs speaking out against the HST and saying their government doesn't support the HST, for example - are ignored?

Does it seem at all like some are trying to force some disparate thin facts into a preconceived narrative?

To me, it says more that there are some bumps whenever you change direction and speed, different voices wanting the party to go different directions. But overriding that is a sense of purpose: we must stay together and get going, get skating. The bumps in the road are felt most at low speeds as you are gearing up.

CanadianSense said...

Ted you were away for the by elections?

The official oppositions did NOT win a single seat or make any gains except for the raw vote out east.

What "metrics" are you using about the Liberals fortunes?

From 2000 when the LPOC held 40.8% of the pop it has been an ugly ride.

If QC rejected the Lib where is the beach head for growth?

The LGR free vote, 30% of the pro LGR voters will punish their party..who do you think that it is?

The LPOC are standing up or laying down to the CPC did something change?

No free vote for HST, why are BC and Ontario MP's less important to represent their regional interests?

This is about regaining control from Bob Rae and his camp.The CPC only need ten votes to let it pass so those Ontario, BC Liberal MP's should be allowed to vote their "conscience"?

RuralSandi said...

Interesting that the NDP are bellyaching. I've heard that 60-65% of the budget for Ontario goes to employees (union employees). Someone's got to pay for them.

Ted Betts said...


Not sure what you thought I was saying but your response seems to indicate you didn't bother reading what I wrote.

The media are trying to push a narrative that the Liberal Party caucus is full of dissent and on the verge of implosion. The facts show they are quite unified as a caucus. Despite some disagreements on specific issues they are working their way through, those different views are not dissension.

As for allowing to vote their conscience and free voting... the CPC is the very last party to provide any commentary on that. Is Harper going to allow a free vote on HST do you think? Not with the even bigger dissension within his caucus on this issue that the media choose to ignore. Would he allow a free vote on the gun registry (the same gun registry, by the way, that Harper voted in favour of back in 1995)?

What was that promise about every vote a free vote except budgets and main estimates back in 2006? Must be something wrong with my memory - and that of the media - for no one to be talking about such a blatant and brazen broken promise.

CanadianSense said...

Ted I read your post, the LPOC and CPC are not the same party or share many traits.

Voters can see them as well as they turn away from the MSM spin.

Can you explain how a minority gov't without any natural allies allows free votes and survives?

Secondly the lack of discipline and backstabbing by the LPOC is based on facts that I will not repeat provide the numerous links. Denying that history of infighting and intercine is silly. Ask John Turner, Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Sheila Copps.

The list is too long. The LPOC took flak when MI noted he admired the communications strategy and discipline of the CPC.

Ted Betts said...

"Can you explain how a minority gov't without any natural allies allows free votes and survives?"

Make it clear that only budgets and main estimates are matters of confidence instead of making every single bill of any degree of importance a matter of confidence. Sorta like he promised.

But if you take your view, can you explain to me why he made the promise then?

"Secondly the lack of discipline and backstabbing by the LPOC is based on facts that I will not repeat provide the numerous links. Denying that history of infighting and intercine is silly. Ask John Turner, Jean Chretien, Paul Martin, Sheila Copps.

Your comment is what is silly. And it misses the very point. I thought you said you read what I wrote.

The media is trying to force a narrative of backstabbing and internecine warfare within the caucus. They tried and tried to make it seem like it was a continuation of past intra-party camps until it was just so patently obvious that the Turner-Chretien-Martin camps and warring was no more.

What backstabbing and internecine warfare is there now to support the narrative? Disagreements are not dissension. Coderre is almost an example, except he always maintained his issue was with staff and not Iggy. And now the staff is gone.

The media is just scrambling to come up with a narrative for Ignatieff and are trying to force one despite the facts. Harper tried with "just visiting" but that hasn't really taken except the kool-aid drinkers. Iggy's real failing is he hasn't taken the chance to fill that vaccuum himself and he won't get elected until he does so.

The list is too long. The LPOC took flak when MI noted he admired the communications strategy and discipline of the CPC.

CanadianSense said...

Ted do you read any polls at all?

Angus Best PM, MI is 12%.

Nanos File/Issue Sept 2009.

It is not "my" opinion but the numerous Polls who clearly do not approve of the LPOC and their party leader.

When was the last time the LPOC had 31% support?

The TV ads and 10% are just helping frame the current leader. The CBC and experts did suggest they would not work. Those experts should stop using the CRU models for predictions.

Ted Betts said...


Do you read email comments upon which you give opinions?

Who is talking about polls?

I'm talking about an attempt by the media to say the Liberals of today are infighting and have no unity despite the evidence. What does that have to do with polls?


CanadianSense said...

Polls are unofficial snapshots in time of the voters. They contain metrics of each leader, party and insight.

Without polling how do you think political parties come out with policy and positions?

How do you think companies allocate resources to build, invest, make business decisions?

Market research*

Regarding the tabloid media, some are giving their "opinion" on the LPOC regarding their dysfunctional politicial party. Who cares about a few comments about the MSM?

Are they based on facts?

Gene Rayburn said...

"Without polling how do you think political parties come out with policy and positions?"

Yes, shortterm thinking for partisan gain. That's effective politics.

You really need some help Crackpot.

Ted Betts said...

Well, CS, sure we could talk about whether the Liberals are effectively getting their message out or connecting with the public or why are they doing poorly in the polls. If you want to change the subject of my comment, that is. We could also talk about the Raptors.

CanadianSense said...


it is not my opinion but an observation of the metrics of the Official Polls from 2000-2009.

The trend has been only negative.

This is not a blip and the voting blocks have left the LPOC.

The Anatomy of the Liberal Defeat a McGill study is a great place to reference.

I don't blame Dion or MI they are both caught in much bigger problem.

Ted Betts said...

Interesting, CS, but I am getting curiouser and curiouser: what does that have to do with my comments?

Gene Rayburn said...

Ted, Oakville Crackpot couldn't keep a model train on track.

Hostile, angry, droopy boobs, Ignatieff face... she just can't keep it together.