Get it done before Parliament returns in January. Tell Bob Rae he's wasting his time and money.
As for Iggy, he hasn't looked bad on TV recently. Mind you, I've watched a lot of it with the sound off, but at least he hasn't accidentally stapled himself to anything, and that in itself is an improvement. Tell him to shave his eyebrows so he doesn't look so much like Spock.
Democracy? Fuck democracy. The party needs to be able to fight an election by the end of next month, whether there is still a coalition to belong to at that time or not.
31 comments:
Who paid for Dion and Harper's video - their parties or the government of Canada ? Who made the arrangements, did the LPC hire the cameraman (only one I am sure) etc.... ??
Rumor has it the cameraman was some kid with his cellphone.
BigCityLib,
I have stayed, and will continue to stay neutral, but Rae and LeBlanc have not looked so awful that they warrant being discarded so quickly.
Democracy. We need democracy. Otherwise, we are hypocrites.
One elderly neighbour said about Bob Rae "you can take the boy out of the NDP, but you can't take the NDP out of the boy".
It sure shows. Seems to me that LeBlanc and Ignatieff are being more thoughtful on this matter.
Rae is trying to make himself spokesman for the Liberals - last I heard a new leader hasn't been elected - did anyone tell Rae this?
Just to clarify, I am a conservative. I don't like sneaking in trying to appear as a liberal, so I wanted to make that clear.
I would have to say the majority of conservatives I know would LOVE to have Michael Ignatieff, he would pull your party more to the right, and stop pulling until he reaches the centre............if the left-wong elements would only let him.
I was cavassing in Mississauga from Conservative Candidate Salma Atallaujahn.....and no joke.....you really lost your immigrant vote. The way I see it right now, the only vote besides the wine amd cheese vote of the 416 that are keeping the liberals on life support are the Italian vote, and Muslim vote (and the East Asian muslim are very complacent, the middle eastern ones are not, they actually go and vote). Why am I saying all this? B/c the taboo of immigrants not voting for conservatives is finished, the conservatives basically took the boogey man the liberals made about them to immigrants, and turned on the lights, and dressed him up in a suit and tie, etc.
Anyhow, Michael I. would save whatever "immigrant" vote you have, I suspect.
I have a personal affection for the man. I messaged him twice in the past, and he did reply to me personally in one of the messages. I told him I would not vote for him federally, but would volunteer to help his leadership campaign, I have not done this only b/c my recent involvement with the CPC at the ridding level.
Anyhow, please , for Goodness sake, you guys are not a left wing party, or at least shouldn't be. Come back to centre, take a breather, stop lusting for power, re-group, hold a POLICY convention, not a leadership one, and make to be a kick A$$ opposition.
Good luck.
Babylonian:
Why should anyone believe someone who's a member of a party that adores a dictator like Stephen Harper?
Why don't you guys dump this lying tyrant, already? In a few short weeks he's ignored a economic crisis and created political, unity and constitutional crises.
Anyway, I hate nervous nelly Liberal posts. Chiefly because every retarded Conservative swoops in to commiserate, to provide advice and to show another dimension for the definition of the word "insufferable."
Hi BigCitLib,
Back when your exec was contemplating the parliamentary crisis, and the coalition formation, I wondered what they "could be possibly be thinking", when they left Dion as the leader until later.
Note to self, coalition must work around this non-starter. Nice guy but come on, there are lots of those, and a leader he is not, IMV.
Didn't he just go on TV saying he will be leader for a few more months?
So if they do your idea of dumping him he looks like a liar on TV and a liar to the Canadian public, and the liberal party looks stupid and dis-organized once again. I say go for it.
Everyone needs to realize that Harper's Conservatives MUST be voted out. Where there is a coalition or not.
This is a lot bigger than
1)with drawing campaign funding required a balanced multi-party elections,
2)total inaction, wasting precious time with total unwillingness to freely put forward an economic plan
3)abusing prorogue procedures to maintain absolute control over the Government of Canada. Harper was not even elected to have a majority control of the commons.
Harper has lost his sanity and is ruthlessly attacking the Governing system of Canada. He clearly does not care about the economic hardships we must endure, but only cares about his personal power.
What is stopping Harper from again?
1) using procedures to delay a non-confidence vote for a week or so.
2) And then proroguing again,
3) repeating the process and in effect taking over absolute control of Government.
NOTHING!!?!!
Thanks Harper, for destroying democracy.
Now we have no choice but to take to the streets and fight for our freedoms you, Harper, have taken away.
I think everyone should focus on the declining political capital of Stephen Harper.
The other issues are internal to partisan politics. But as the Prime Minister of Canada, his disastrous behaviour in the last few weeks. in which he ignored an economic crisis and created a political crisis, then a national unity crisis and nearly a constitutional crisis (although I believe he has in fact weakened the Crown) cannot be ignored to focus on the piddling details related to a couple of seconds in time.
The economic news today is awful. And what did Harper do? Close down Parliament.
Way to go, Herr Harper!
Iggy needs to stick his neck out a little. He's not helping his reputation as an opportunist by sitting on the fence with his finger to the wind every time something remotely controversial happens (foreign policy notwithstanding). He needs to display some conviction, you can't be a good leader without that.
Just out of curiosity, would you also be advocating dropping the whole coalition thing? 'Cause I agree that, sadly, the Liberals now need to dump Dion, and fast. That video debacle was the last of the last straws. However, it seems as though Rae has decided to push for the coalition, and start campaigning vigorously from coast to coast, while Iggy seems to be in a "wait and see if we can figure out how to work with Harper" mode. (LINK).
So, it seems to me that the race has come down to two candidates with very different ideas for the immediate strategy. One who says "strike now, fight for the coalition and take out Harper asap", and another who says "gee, maybe this whole coalition thing was a bad idea, maybe we ought to see if we can use whatever leverage we have left to get some stuff out of the Tories and then move on".
I don't deny that Rae is probably thinking this strategy is his potential "game changer" moment, and it does certainly change the nature of the race, imho, drawing a clear bright line between the two top leadership contenders.
But does it change the game?
LK,
For me the coalition is optional. But, lets say we are a couple more months down the road and the gov. is brought down. GG might at this point say enough time has passed to send us to another election. I don't believe there can be a coalition campaign--it won't hold together--so the opposition parties better be ready to fight their own campaigns. The only ones who won't be under this scenario would be the Libs.
Unfortunately, and don't believe for a second he doesn't know it, by proroguing parliament Harper now has a free hand for the next 2 years.
The non-Conservative parties can't afford an election and they'll have a stronger case for calling an election as time goes by, so the parties are going to have to back down and take whatever he dishes out.
I can't help thinking that Iggy is about winning a strong majority down the road, while Rae is about saving the country from Harper. As I am far more of an "Anti-Conservative" than a pro-Liberal, I'm more concerned with getting Harper out than who leads the coalition and/or the party.
I have been saying since the election that I just could not believe that the Liberals would or could not give us a leader until MAY! MAY?
This is crazy.
Do it on the internet, Do it like a hockey draft on TV, Rae and LeBlance just quit, anything to get a Liberal leader in place by Jan 1.
You knew Harper would try something like this. What were you thinking?
Here's a little news for you people. Sweaterguy wasn't real. Got it?
The bottom line, I think, is that nothing can keep people from perceiving Dion as a nerd.
And some things, even going back to high school, don't change.
I think this video sums it all up pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQMtwJ7fUgY
BCL,
The whole "would the GG even let the coalition take over at the end of January?" thing is interesting, and hadn't really entered my head.
It seem patently unfair (and slightly contemptuous of our system of government) that the GG would allow the PM to essentially create the conditions under which time passes with no opportunity for the opposition to have any say in the running of the country, and then deny the opposition an opportunity to form a government because a lot of time has passed during which the opposition has had no say in the running of the country.However, I don't deny that that could very well happen.
(That said, I personally see January 26th as day 17 of this government, not day "whatever the calendar says" as it will only be their 17th day facing the House. Personally, I feel that that is the way the governor General must approach this (ESPECIALLY since two whole weeks of the intervening time are Chrismas and New Years), but who knows what the GG would actually do!).
Anyway, that's definitely an important point to consider as well.
I think the Liberals have a lot of deep, serious thinking to do.
And I think they need to make a decision within two weeks, or whatever they decide, it'll be too late.
All this hand-wringing, dire prognostications too far into the future and Conservative concern trolling are distracting us from the only bright spot in the last few days:
CanWest closed at an historical low of 59 cents yesterday!
Ti-Guy,
I agree that the focus should be on the disaster that is Harper, but unless one feels that either: A) Dion can get something done about Harper before May, or B) There's no need to rush to do anything about Harper - we'll start the fight after the leadership race; then someone needs to figure out what to do to deal with Harper.
If everyone just focuses on "Look at Harper losing political capital" then in January things will be completely disorganized, Harper will win a confidence vote, et voila! Three more years of Harper.
Also, not that I totally believe the polls, but there were two polls out yesterday both showing Harper and the Tories above 40% in public opinion (one at 44%). I do take that with a grain of salt, but I also have to take "Harper's losing political capital" with a grain of salt in the face of almost unprecedented Tory success in the public opinion polls.
Only one of the two narratives is true. Either Harper's losing political capital, or he's up 7 points from election day. "Keep watching and keep the focus on Harper" makes sense in the face of option 1. Not so much for option 2.
What I would do is have Dion step down and put the interim leader thing to a vote of caucus. It would be over in a couple hours. The leadership convention can go ahead but in the meantime there's at least someone who has the backing of the caucus. An "installed" Iggy would be perceived to have no legitimacy. Harper would love to tar him as Czar of the Liberals.
LK0:
Also, not that I totally believe the polls, but there were two polls out yesterday both showing Harper and the Tories above 40% in public opinion (one at 44%). I do take that with a grain of salt,
Then why talk about it? Ekos itself didn't put much stock in it yesterday, when, in an interview on the Braaawdcast, its spokesman (I don't recall the name) stated that he believed public opinion opinion to be highly mercurial right now.
If everyone just focuses on "Look at Harper losing political capital" then in January things will be completely disorganized, Harper will win a confidence vote, et voila! Three more years of Harper.
You mean all of us should spend all of our time speculating on issues for which we have no real accurate information and make anguished guesses about what is going to happen in the future based on literally thousands of unknowns and what-if's?
This why most people hate politics, you know.
Liberals/progressives need to take a clue from the Conservatives. All their strategic discussions of any real import are internal. Their public discussions are simple and straightforward.
...and unbelievably stupid and humourless, which is of course, the disadvantage they always have.
I don't see any point in bothering with unecessary complexity right now. Harper is being reviled and that's a campaign we can all get behind. And legitimately as well, since the little dictator has really made a mess of things.
Your points are all excellent Ti-Guy. I suppose we should all stay quiet and focus on attacking Harper (that's not sarcasm... I take your point), but doesn't that just make us robots towing the party line? Sure, the Tory conbots are disciplined. It's what drives me nuts about them. Me, I'd rather stir things up (and also, I don't think anyone, anywhere, pays any attention to me, so I don't really feel a need to play my cards close to my chest).
January 26th isn't that far away. Is the plan going to be to bring down Harper, or walk back from the Coalition?
'Cause I really think the Liberals need to decide that before Christmas or for all of the horrible optics for Harper, people are going to get distracted by the Liberals tearing themselves apart after Christmas, and Harper might (MIGHT) just be smart enough to keep his mouth shut and watch it happen.
It seems clear Rae's gonna go all "Let's take Harper down coalition-style" in a big way now. It's less clear, but it seems Iggy wants to dial down the rhetoric and back slowly away from the coalition. I agree with you whole heartedly that now is not the time to focus on internal party politics, but a couple of big Liberal gun fighters seem to be circling each other in the middle of the street. My point is they'd better settle their fight now, or it'll be the main attraction come 2009.
If the Leadership thing isn't settled, somehow, in 2008, then no one's going to even pay attention to Harper in the first half of 2009 (by "settled", I'd include, deciding on a short term strategy for the party that Rae and Ignatieff can agree on, installing an interim leader, and getting the focus back on Harper until after the end of January).
It's 2008. We have the attention span of gnats. If something shinier (or bloodier) comes along to distract us, we'll get distracted! (I mean "the public", not "you and I").
One other thing the Tories do pretty well too is rally. If the main stories from January-May of 2009 are "Liberal Civil War" and "Conservatives rallying around Harper" what do you think will get the most coverage?
And where will that lead?
No, no, no! Iggy is the king of all douche bags! If you've read his work or seen him speak, you must realize that he is incredibly self-centred, and what's worse, not in the least self-critical. He glides over contradictions in his logic, and talks as though he's been gifted by God with the voice of wisdom. He would have dragged us into Iraq, just like Harper would have. He is an imperialist at heart. He is not the type of leader we want.
Marissa - nonsense. Believe me, if you google hard enough there are some nasty things about Rae.
Curious - why is everyone moaning about Iggy not coming out enough yet they don't moan about LeBlanc.
Ever think their strategists understand something we don't?
See what I mean, LKO?
Yes Ti-Guy, but my point is kinda that that sort of thing can't be stopped, except by stopping it (i.e. SETTLING it).
Either Rae and Ignatieff have to come up with a mutually acceptable plan of action for the Liberal party for December '08 - February '09, or the party has to do something quick to figure out which one of them is going to be the leader.
I get that it's destructive for the party (and the coalition) to have Liberals fighting in the open, but I also get that Liberals fight in the open.
They need to either establish a plan under which the fight can be suspended (beyond a blogger or two saying "hey, don't be idiots, knock it off"), or have the fight fast and pick a winner.
RuralSandi - Well duh there's bad stuff about Rae too. You don't have to google anything to know that. The point is that Ignatieff is a massive jackass who, while he thinks he cares about people and human rights and stuff, only understands the world from his privileged perch atop an ivory tower, all filtered through the lens of his own self-centredness. If he becomes leader of the Liberals, no good will come of it. If he's the best they've got right now, they should look harder for other candidates.
78% of Liberal voters prefer the coalition.
I understand the strategic argument but grassroot support for this should not be ignored.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2008/12/05/7640731-sun.html
How about Marlene Jennings as interim leader?
48 hours ago Dion and the Liberals were the most competent party to lead Canada through the greatest economic crisis since the 1930's.
Today they're not.
I don't think there is much else to say.
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