Saturday, January 10, 2009

Israel Concedes A Point



No mortar shells were fired from the play-ground of the al-Fahora school, as per earlier claims by the IDF.

65 comments:

penlan said...

Gosh, wonder what Cherniak will say now. Bet he still won't believe it.

The Doctor said...

The IDF have categorically denied this report by UNRWA, in fact they have the names of the two Hamas militant fighters, whose bodies were found in the school.

UNWRA is desperately trying to cover up the fact that they allowed Hamas fighters into their complex and fire mortar shells at Israelis.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Gosh, wonder what Cherniak will say now. Bet he still won't believe it.
Well the doctor troll seems to prove your point....

JC will likely say "so that's that" - and move on. Now if it had been Israelis who died... It would be proof of a conspiracy against Jews and proof that the world hates them only because of their religion.

Iggy would be spouting the need for tactical nuclear strike in the middle of Gaza and how all Palestinians in Canada should be rounded up as terrorist and interned or some other nonsense....

The Doctor said...

WTF

Time to head to the NDP.
Your run here is over.

penlan said...

WTF,

That's a bit extreme on what Iggy would supposedly do. Carrying it a bit far. And just so you know I, too, am very angry & outraged with Iggy as well.

Steve V said...

This isn't really news, right after this attack the UN representative, who was at the school at the time, said that they specifically banned any militants from entering the property. Anybody that actually believes the UNWRA voluntarily let fighters into a school to fire mortars is a) stupid b)has their pro-Israel head up their ass

As for the IDF Quack, have they admitted they shot at the UN truck, or are they still claiming somebody else might have?

Cherniak_WTF said...

That's a bit extreme on what Iggy would supposedly do. Carrying it a bit far.
Yes it was -
My point is that Iggy seems more "warmonger-lite" than previous Liberal leaders.
This is a fool who approves of torture, approved of the war in Iraq and excuses the actions of Israel...

Cherniak_WTF said...

Anybody that actually believes the UNWRA voluntarily let fighters into a school to fire mortars is
a) stupid
b)has their pro-Israel head up their ass

The Doctor, guilty as charged....




As for the IDF Quack, have they admitted they shot at the UN truck, or are they still claiming somebody else might have?

Still trying to deny. Plausible deniability is the truth with Israeli propaganda...

Henry said...

With Iggy in charge and Kinsella running the war room, Ezra's HezboLiberal page looks a little dated. HezboDipper?

Steve V said...

Funny, how "The Doctor" just suddenly showed up on all the Liblogs, just after this conflict started. Gee, I wonder who he really is ;)

penlan said...

Do you know who "The Doctor" is Steve? Or have a suspicion? Just curious.

The Doctor said...

Mahmoud as-Shatat, 23, a former student leader for Fatah, agrees. "Hamas consider us infidels," he said. "They brutalized us, their own people. I have no sympathy for them."

And what of the pictures on TV showing the ordinary people of Gaza being shelled?

"Hamas shoots from between houses," Mr. as-Shatat said. "They hope Israel will fire at them and kill some civilians."

sassy said...

"Funny, how "The Doctor" just suddenly showed up on all the Liblogs, just after this conflict started. Gee, I wonder who he really is ;)"

Can't shed any light on who but this is probably answers what

The Doctor said...

so when the facts don't align with your rants, start attacking the individual as a distraction!

Steve V said...

I'm just curious how you avoid fighting from in between houses, when the theatre is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet. I guess people were naive enough to think a guerilla army would head out into a field to meet the Israeli artillery and aircraft head on. Hello.

Steve V said...

"so when the facts don't align with your rants"

There were no fighters in the school, that's a fact.

What about this fact. Why did it take four days for the IDF to allow the UN into a bombed out home, where half dead children were clinging to their dead parents? Why was there an IDF post 80 meters from the house, and yet nobody bothered to search for survivors, or allow access to humanitarian organizations? Oh yes, FACTS.

The Doctor said...

So Steve, what you are saying is that it is ok for combattants to embbed themselves within a civilian population?

The Doctor said...

You can continue to believe the reports that you want and I will rely on the reports that I deem worthy of honesty.

I do not believe for one second that Israel targets civilians.

I know, beyond question, that Hamas targets civilians and that they use women and children as human sheilds.

Those are the facts as I know them. I am pleased that the Liberal Party and the Government of Canada also recognize those FACTS.

Steve V said...

Quack

I'm saying that "embedding" is inevitable, given the theatre. Give your apologist head a shake, where do you expect the fighters to go, out into a field because it's the noble thing to do? You're talking about an inferior band of militants, within a densely populated area. To say that Hamas is fighting in civilian areas, is admitting the obvious, it's sort of inevitable. Anyways, everyone knows there is no military solution, and the rockets won't stop until there is a ceasefire, so just keep up with the insanity, that accomplishes nothing.

Cherniak_WTF said...

so when the facts don't align with your rants, start attacking the individual as a distraction!
No The Doctor - I called you a troll -
You have a recently minted account and are trying to be "probative".
So far your arguments have been puerile and would be better suited to the section of "fantasy" or the Blogging Tories....

It's clear that Israel will continue this propaganda war. In a few years the truth may come out and some will be accused of war crimes - but it will be too late by then.
I'm sure that Doctor Death will blurb that incidents such as Qana are "too bad" -

Jason Cherniak is rather quiet/blind to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza - would not want to thing that maybe the IDF are butchers.... Just has Irgun and Lehi were not terrorist organizations...

penlan said...

Sassy,

Good point! Makes sense.

Steve V said...

"I will rely on the reports that I deem worthy of honesty."

No, what you do, is ignore what you don't want to see and provide anything that supports your one-sided point of view. You're just spewing propaganda, rather than looking at this honestly. Any fair observer sees plenty of blame to go around, on all sides. I've criticized Hamas, the rocket attacks, terrorizing Israeli citizens, etc. That acknowledgement doesn't preclude me from simply pointing out some of the outrageous actions of Israelis. People like you pretend it's all justified, and you simply present a partial argument, which is frankly irrelevant in totality. It's just propaganda, it's not worth anything. Anyways, carry on with the crusade, your bias negates any honest analysis in my mind.

The Doctor said...

The rockets have been fired from Gaza for over 8 years. Before, during and after ceasefires.

The rockets have been launched from Gaza before during and after the closure of crossings.

The rockets have been launched from Gaza during and after Israeli occupation of Gaza.

The rockets have to stop in order to have a ceasefire, not the other way around.

During the 6 month "ceasefire" over 800 rockets and mortars landed in Israel from Gaza.

Cherniak_WTF said...

Anyways, everyone knows there is no military solution, and the rockets won't stop until there is a ceasefire, so just keep up with the insanity, that accomplishes nothing.
There is a political one.

It's funny how the founding of Israel was influenced by terrorists acts (blowing up the King David hotel, bombing infrastructure, kidnapping and killings) by Jewish Terrorist groups accomplished the goal of setting up of country...

Rabin, Sharon, Zeevi, Dayan all belonged to the terrorist Haganah yet for many they are viewed as heroes.

Hamas uses firecrackers to scare Israelis? Yes.
Now maybe Isreal and Palestinian should sit down with a neutral third party and work out solutions for this conflict.
So far Israel does not want.... there seems to be no political will...

Steve V said...

Yes, and the rockets are still coming, despite scores of dead Palestinians. What have you accomplished today, seems to me, more rockets have gone into Israel in the past two weeks, than the past two years. The only solution is an immediate ceasefire, if Israel voluntarily ceases operations and Hamas continues, THEN we can all reaccess. Right now, Israel is ignoring the international will, AGAIN, and in the end, I guarantee the threat will still exist, unless you want to carpet bomb the entire strip. Repeat after me, "there is no military solution".

The Doctor said...

For a little history lesson WTF;

The Hagannah's targets were all military.

Don't let the facts confuse you.

The Doctor said...

Hamas has rejected the ceasefire.

The first condition of the ceasefire is the cessation of rocket fire.

And just so you are aware, the International Community includes Canada. Canada's Government and Opposition is united in calling for the rockets to halt as the first and required step in any ceasefire.

Steve V said...

Fact

"In briefings senior [Israel Defense Forces] officers conducted for foreign diplomats, they admitted the shelling to which IDF forces in Jabalya were responding did not originate from the school,"

I guess the IDF is lying too.

The Doctor said...

WTF
"Firecrackers"


what a foolish comment

Steve V said...

"what a foolish comment"

From one who would know.

The Doctor said...

Your "quote" is from the UNWRA official who allowed his school to be used by the Hamas fighters and to have munitions stored there.

The IDF has said at no time did it provide a briefing to UNWRA.

So, all made up by the UNWRA official who is trying to cover-up his huge error in judgment.

FACT!

The Doctor said...

Steve,

Why not head to southern Israel and let some "firecrackers" rain down on you.

What is the point of referring to kassam rockets as "firecrackers"?

Steve V said...

You're a robotic bore. Don't you dare let anything pierce your predisposition. It's like debating somebody on auto pilot. Carry on, I don't care anymore. Out.

The Doctor said...

Steve

Head to Ashkelon to catch the firecrackers if you are bored.

Cherniak_WTF said...

The doctor, you are a fine propagandist...
During the 6 month "ceasefire" over 800 rockets and mortars landed in Israel from Gaza.

Maybe you should mention the collective punishment that Israel continued during that period. Israel still controlled almost all aspect in Gaza (from air space, border crossings, seaports).

Of those rockets that you claim were fired, how many reached Israel? These are mostly crude firecrackers.

How many times did Israel break the truce and international law? From the Israeli navy stopping legitimate fishing to collective punishment.

Hamas agreed to a ceasefire in return for a lifting of the blockade - Israel did not held up it's end of the deal...

So what do you suggest Hamas (the political arm) and people in Gaza do?

The Doctor said...

WTF

Besides stopping its 8 year's of rocket attacks, Hamas can/should:

1. Recognize Israel's right to exist.

2. Rennounce terrorism

3. Recognize Mahmoud Abbas' authority

4. Cease executing its political opponents.

Those steps would be a good start.

It would also allow Israel and the PA to persure the Road Map.

Fred said...

The UN and all its Pally agencies are war criminals. They have been aiding and abetting Hamas since forever. The denial is their cover up.

Using human shields is a war crime. Period. Aiding war criminals is a war crime.

Here's Hamas, here's you "victim"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg&eurl

Cherniak_WTF said...

The Hagannah's targets were all military.

Don't let the facts confuse you.

What a stupid statement.
Even "googling" would clear up your severe delusions that only underscores you lack of understanding and cognitive dissonance with reality...


Please go back to sucking the bunghole of Israeli propaganda....

Cherniak_WTF said...

Fred, maybe you should check your sources for that video instead of regurgitating spin doctors ejaculate...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg&eurl


ssues of reliability and veracity

MEMRI is operated by a group closely associated with the Israeli intelligence organizations. Now, in an article in Haaretz, we find that the Israeli Army has sought to plant stories about "terrorism" in the press, and
"Psychological warfare officers were in touch with Israeli journalists covering the Arab world, gave them translated articles from Arab papers (which were planted by the [Israel Defense Forces] IDF) and pressed the Israeli reporters to publish the same news here." --Amos Harel, IDF reviving psychological warfare unit, Haaretz, January 25, 2005.
This should raise a question or two about the reliability and veracity of the stories peddled by MEMRI.
This is what Prof. Juan Cole had to say about this:
"So is MEMRI, which translates articles from the Arabic press into English for thousands of US subscribers, in any way involved in all this? Its director formerly served in… Israeli military intelligence. How much of what we "know" from "Arab sources" about "Hizbullah terrorism" was simply made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv?
As someone who reads the Arabic press quite a lot, this sort of revelation is extremely disturbing.
I also saw an allegation that British military intelligence had planted stories in the US press about Saddam's Iraq.
You begin to wonder how much of what you think you know is just propaganda manufactured by some bored colonel. No wonder post-Baath Iraq looks nothing like what we were led to to expect by the press, including the Arab press!" [3]
Another assessment:
If you rely on MEMRI for your knowledge of Arab discourse, you are really not informed. Arab public opinion, based on MEMRI's releases, is reduced or caricatured to either Bin Laden fans or Bush fans, while Arab public opinion is mosty a fan of neither people. --As'ad AbuKhalil [4]
Although widely used in the mainstream media as a source of information on the Arab world, it is as trustworthy as Julius Streicher's Der Sturmer was on the Jewish world. --Norman Finkelstein [5]

From SourceWatch...

The Doctor said...

WTF

You rely on Norman Finkelstein.
Everone else can view Hamas in their own words from Fred's post.

WTF, are you suggestu=ing that the Hamas leader's words have been crafted by Israeli operatives?

Have you ever hear an Israeli leader call for the death of Arabs. HAve you heard a pro-Israeli rally call for the death of Palestinians?
Have you evidence of Israeli suicide bombers.

Golda Meir got it right with her famous quote about Palestinians loving their children.

Gene said...

I've got "facts"! Pesky facts ... and more pesky facts

----------
Gaza Call to Action

Gene said...

To the question above: Have you ever hear[d] an Israeli leader call for the death of Arabs?

Not personally, no. I've read it about it though.

----------
Gaza Call to Action

sassy said...

Gene - you provide good links ;)

Thanks

The Doctor said...

Gene

Postings "facts"from Norman Finkelstein have zero credibility.

Go ahead and post more links to anti_israel rallys that will no doubt call for "Death to all Jews" as did the rallies last week in New York, Ft. Lauderdale and Montreal.

That is the real answer of Hamas in anycase. Drive Israel into the sea and all will be well.

The Doctor said...

Gene:

Not even close as the calls from Hamas leaders.

Lieberman called for Arab legislators who dealyt with Hamas to be tried, in front of the courts, for treason.

He did not call for "death to Arabs" or Palestinians to be driven into the sea. He did not call for Rome and the Catholic Church to be overrun.

Liberman was roundly denounced by other Israeli MK's, the Israeli free press.

The Doctor said...

Got to go, sorry.

Be back later.

Gene said...

The Doctor, nobody is calling for 'Death to all Jews' here, certainly not I. On the contrary, we want the 'death' to stop, on all sides.

As for wackos in demonstrations, first who knows that they are not plants? And secondly, even if they weren't, that shouldn't invalidate the purpose of the demonstration that has nothing to do with their agenda and all to do with this quote: For Jews, the past merits remembering not solely as an eternal memorial to our past suffering, but also as a shining beacon and guide for all of humanity to avoid the tragedies and horror once again in our shared futures. Indeed, in each generation to remember, and to never again forget.

Shalom!

Ti-Guy said...

Be back later.

I'm lactating with anticipation.

I bet there's one thing all sensible people (right, left, pro-this anti-that) can agree on: it's time to round up the trolls, put them in camps and gas them!

Cherniak_WTF said...

I'm wondering what psychotropic drugs you are ingesting Doctor... your comprehension has taken a big hit...

I'll try and keep it simple for you.
MEMRI is akin to Israeli' propaganda arm - so I would not trust any of their videos. That would be Fred's little link.

Finkelstein is only one person questioning MEMRI.

Have you ever hear an Israeli leader call for the death of Arabs.
Yes. And Israel has a history of targeted assassinations...

HAve you heard a pro-Israeli rally call for the death of Palestinians?
Sadly, yes.

Have you evidence of Israeli suicide bombers.
What a stupid statement. If Hamas had Israeli weapons....

shlemazl said...

Firstly the information in this post is false. You can hear it from the hourse's mouth here.

Secondly UNRWA itself admitted that it has Hamas members (i.e. terrorists according to law in Canada, US and most other countries) on it's payroll [source: Peter Hansen, UNRWA Commissioner-General for Gaza interview to the CBC, 4th October 2004].

Finally even headmasters for UNRWA schools are terrorists, so their credibility is somewhat dented... Except in certain circles.

Gene said...

Thanks, Sassy! I'm glad you found the links useful. Peace!

Fred said...

"Blogger Ti-Guy said...

Be back later.

I'm lactating with anticipation."

Try Midol, it will help with your cramps as well.

lenny said...

"During the 6 month "ceasefire" over 800 rockets and mortars landed in Israel from Gaza."

You're lying, "Doctor".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MonthlyRocketHits.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MonthlyMortarHits.svg

The ceasefire began in June. On Nov. 4 the IDF attacked and killed 6 members of Hamas in Gaza.

The Doctor said...

Lenny.

You are correct my number of 800 Rockets and Mortars fired by Hamas during the ceasefire is incorrect.

The correct number is 538.

The 6 Hamas members killed by IDF troops in November were attempting to kidnap an IDF Soldier through a tunnel that they had dug into Israel's side of the border.

lenny said...

"The correct number is 538"

No "Doctor", you're still wrong. 37 rockets and mortars hit Israel from Gaza from the beginning of the ceasefire in June until Israel's killing of 6 Hamas members in Nov. Further, none of those rockets or mortars were claimed to have been fired by Hamas.

"the 6 Hamas members killed by IDF troops in November were attempting to kidnap an IDF Soldier through a tunnel that they had dug into Israel's side of the border."

Can you substantiate that claim, or is it simply based on the claim of the IDF?

lenny said...

"Firstly the information in this post is false. You can hear it from the hourse's mouth here."

Uh huh. I think you meant "the accused's mouth".
The accused is claiming they didn't commit a crime. I guess the jury can go home.

Dr.Dawg said...

Just curious--are you going to stay on GlibLogs now that Cherniak is acting like an IDF censor?

Dr.Dawg said...

I guess schlemazl didn't get the memo.

lenny said...

"I guess schlemazl didn't get the memo."

Well, he is a bit hermetic.

bigcitylib said...

Dawg,

Haven't decided yet.

penlan said...

BCL,

In response to Dawg about whether you will stay with Liblogs.

I have a deep concern, now, that whatever I write can be censored (deleted) & that I cannot post anything, at Liblogs, re: the I/P conflict unless it's pro-Israeli - even FACTS that do not support the PR output from Israel/IDF - without the possibility of being booted out of Liblogs.

This is not healthy from any point of view.

I now think that perhaps it's time for a new aggregate that is mostly Liberal but not a copy of Progressive Bloggers.

I do not have the abilities, skills, know-how to do this but would be willing to help in any other way that I could.

The Doctor said...

The 538 number is provided through the Israel Home Front Command, which collects the remnants of each fired missle. They are numbered and catalogued.

If you visit the town of Sderot, the police station has racks and racks of these fired shells on display.

Here are the details which resulted in Israel's November 6/08 retaliation:

"Arab terrorists bombarded Sderot and Gaza Belt communities and Ashkelon
Wednesday morning with more than 40 Kassam rockets and mortar shells
after the IDF killed six terrorists and destroyed a tunnel that was to be used
to kidnap soldiers. The tunnel was located underneath the home of an Arab family,
and the IDF stated that its construction, adjacent to the separation barrier was
a "blatant violation of the ceasefire." No injuries or damage were reported in the
rocket attacks and mortar shelling."
- November 5, 2008

lenny said...

"The 538 number is provided through the Israel Home Front Command, which collects the remnants of each fired missle. They are numbered and catalogued."

Give it up Doctor. The number from the Israelis is right here, and that number is 37.

"Here are the details which resulted in Israel's November 6/08 retaliation:"

That's nice, Doctor, but I asked you if you could substantiate your claim, not paraphrase it. Obviously you can't.

The Mound of Sound said...

I don't know who this proctologist is but he's full of it on the scope of terrorism of the Haganah, Irgun, Stern and Palmach organizations.

He needs to learn a little of his own side's history involving places such as Deir Yassin and the King David Hotel.

At Deir Yassin the British officer who investigated the massacre of Arab villagers wrote this:

"...There is, however, no doubt that many sexual atrocities were committed by the attacking Jews. Many young school girls were raped and later slaughtered. Old women were also molested."

"Meir Pa'el, then a young Palmach commando, had 'set down what he saw with his own eyes and what he heard with his own ears in the report which he sent at the time to Israel Galili 9subsequently Minister of State) the head of the Hganah command:

"It was noon when the battle ended and the shooting stopped. Things had become quiet, but the village had not surrendered. The Etzel [Irgun] and Lehi [Stern] irregulars left the places in which they had been hiding and started carrying out cleaning up operations in the houses. They fired with all the arms they had, and threw explosives into the houses. They also shot everyone they saw in the houses, including women and children - indeed the commanders made no attempt to check the disgraceful cts of slaughter."

Jacques de Reynier, head of the International Red Cross delegation to Palestine, risked his life to get into the village. This is from his follow-up report:

"...All of them were young, some even adolescents, men and women, armed to the teeth: revolvers, machine guns, hand grenades, and also cutlasses in their hands, most of them still blood-stained. A beautiful young girl, with criminal eyes, showed me hers still dripping with blood' she displayed it like a tropy.

...Everywhere it was the same horrible sight...there had been 4090 people in the viullage' about fifty of themn had escaped and were still alive. All the rest had been deliberately massacred in cold blood for, as I observed for myself, this gang was admirably disciplined and only acted under orders."

We get endless bullshit from the pro-Israel lobby and it gets tiring after a while. The true story is meticulously documented in "The Gun and The Olive Branch, The Roots of Violence in the Middle East" by David Hirst, the former Middle East correspondent for The Guardian.

He's no Arab stooge. In fact he's been banned from six Arab countries but he doesn't pull any punches on this subject either.

Israeli officials prefer to ignore Hirst altogether than to risk trying to denounce him as anti-Semitic - because he's plainly not.

The Mound of Sound said...

correction - typo

There were 400 people in the village, not 4090