Saturday, March 06, 2010

Iggy And The Christians

Specifically, Iggy and his attempts at outreach into various sectors of the Canadian Christian community:

On coming into the Liberal leadership, however, [Iggy] recognized that, in the past few decades, some of his party members had become increasingly derisive of evangelical Christians -- and, to a lesser extent, Roman Catholics. That vitriol was especially directed at Christian politicians with Conservative or Reform party connections. Leaders like Stockwell Day were described as "scary," especially with respect to their pro-life or pro-creationist viewpoints.


The decline in the number of Liberal federal seats in rural and small-city Ontario could be traced, statistically, to the favour with which evangelicals were viewing the Conservatives. That happened especially after the merger of the Canadian Alliance and Progressive Conservative parties.

So Iggy has asked Toronto-area MP John McKay to act as his agent among the believers:

While articulating strongly why he believes evangelical and Catholic Christians should be supportive of the federal Liberals, McKay took care not to be corrosively critical of the Conservatives. He did caution, however, that what he sees as the current Conservative penchant to "lock up the pro-Israel and evangelical votes," as heading in a "dangerous" direction.


An interesting challenge for McKay has been to build networks with Christians who are unhappy with Ignatieff's insistence that maternal and child health in less developed countries should include support for abortion and contraception.


Earlier reports had indicated that Liberal strategists had recommended Ignatieff take a pro-abortion stance as a means of establishing a wedge issue among Conservatives.

I blame Kinsella and that damn doll of his.


Anonymous said...

I blame politicians who pander to religion.... but hey.... why blame the politicians.

bubba said...

If a party's policies oppose many of a churches beliefs it is going to be very hard to campaign for that churchs members votes. For many christians open and vocal support of abortion is a deal breaker. I dont think you have to openly oppose but to be seen to campaign for increased numbers puts you in an impossible position for many thousands of supporters that may vote for you on almost all other issues.

Gene Rayburn said...

Shorter Bubba: You'll never get the Christofascist vote from the Cons! Not unless you buy Bubba a lunch (that's how they got his vote the last time).

Ti-Guy said...

but to be seen to campaign for increased numbers

What's this lie in aid of, Bubba?

[Iggy] recognized that, in the past few decades, some of his party members had become increasingly derisive of evangelical Christians -- and, to a lesser extent, Roman Catholics.

*sigh* "Christians" bearing false witness. And they're all flocking to antichrists like Stephen Harper.

Let the End Times roll.

bubba said...

I didn't mean he did campaign . But to those that are highly sensitive to the issue his words of support are enough.Just as I am sure they are dissappointed in PMSH for not coming out strongly opposed to abortion. This is an issue that is considered life and death to many catholics. I dont think the Libs can win them over. The best bet would be to be silent on it or just accept that vote will be unnatainable and fish elsewhere.

bubba said...

You are right Gene you will never get that vote. but the big problem is risking the more moderate christian vote.The more you talk about abortion the more they have to justify in their mind supporting a party that opposes their religious beliefs. It can not be easy.

Ti-Guy said...

What we really are talking about are fringes of monomaniacal voters whose support is over-valued in closely contested elections.

That democracies are being held hostage to these largely irrational and uninformed hypocrites makes me shake with fury, to the extent that I believe they should be disenfranchised until we institute proportional representation.

WesternGrit said...

What Ti-Guy said.

Anyone who believes the Earth was "created" 6000 years ago, is an f'n nutjob. No intelligence involved there at all.

If we continue to step back from this, and "accept" these views, we do ourselves a disservice. We allow these completely non-sensical fantasies to become "acceptable" - like the "tooth-fairy".

It's the same as the gradual creep towards the right in the US, as the President tries to be conciliatory. You start being "bi-partisan" and you start allowing the opinions of a much smaller group be counted equally. The same is true in this religious non-debate. Fight it. Put them in their paleolithic corner, and carry on with the growth of society, and the growth of the nation.

Religion has NO PLACE in government... Particularly anything as crazy as one which believes that man walked with dinosaurs. These crazies have influenced our laws a little too much lately.

Iggy better give it up and start focusing on the factors which matter. It ain't the Neanderthals.

There. I said it. Please crucify me religio-nuts...

Anyong said...

Isn't State and religion separate? The controversy regarding abortion should not be in the hands of government nor religions but in the hands of the individual. If a person so chooses to have an abortion and practice birth control, it is no ones business. If it is against religious beliefs, then let God handle it when that person passes on. closed.

bubba said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bubba said...

Roman Catholicism in Canada
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This isnt some fringe group you write-off or ignore. and you anger them at serious risk on election day. But hey what do I know

The Catholic Church is the world's largest Christian Church, and its largest religious grouping (1.143 billion members, more than half of the Christian population in the world). It is also the largest religion in Canada with 46% of Canadians (13,070,000 as of 2008) baptized as Catholics. There are 72 dioceses and about 8,000 priests in Canada.

Ti-Guy said...

This isnt some fringe group you write-off or ignore.

I know that. I'm a Catholic...a devout one, in fact.

The problem we're having is that, too often, we only get to hear what the moribund and corrupt hierarchy and the conservative loonies and liars have to say. You can find discussions all over the media in which liberal/progressive/rational Catholics lament the fact that they have *no voice* within the framework of public discussion that has been established over the last decade.

It doesn't help that bloggers like BCL think Catholics read LifeSite and Catholic Insight, much less agree with what they publish. Most Catholics have never even heard of these outfits.

Anonymous said...

I'm wondering what values Catholics can actually bring to Canada that is not covered one way or another by various laws and the Charter...

WesternGrit said...

Err... Check my reply... It has nothing to do with Roman Catholics... We're talking a certain group of very vocal nutjobs - Not the RC's - who are actually very progressive, as far as religions go... Great deal of respect for that group here... The concern is with the US-replica fringes who are inserting their talons up here... We all know who we're talking about...

RuralSandi said...

Those devout Christians who claim to believe in Christ and Christ's teachings and supposedly take what's said in the Bible aren't paying attention to what is said in the Bible - only what they are told by the leaders of their churches.

Fact is, Christ did believe in the separation of Church and State, he did not believe in organized religion and abortion in not even mentioned in the Bible.

Public Prayer & Displays of Faith:

And when thou pray, thou shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in
the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou pray, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret…
[Matthew 6:6 & 7]

Corporate Greed and the Religion of Wealth:

In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other
sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle;
he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. [John 2:14 & 15.] Watch out! Be on your guard against
all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. [Luke 12.15.] Truly, I say unto you, it will
be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 19:23] You cannot serve both God and Money. [Matthew 6:24.]

Paying Taxes & Separation of Church & State:

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the
things that are God's. [Matthew 22:21]

bubba said...

The quotes you use are to say you should not only pray for "show" but also pray in private and on a personal level. No quotes you give show that Jesus supports or is against abortion. I think I will defer to the pope my bishop and my priest on this issue thanks. The harder the Libs push the issue the more votes they lose. Many Libs realize this and would like Iggy to back off. Even when you are right(which I am not saying)you can not win some arguments.

RuralSandi said...

Actually, I was sort of wrong on the Bible/abortion issue. It's one of those areas where the Bible contradicts itself.

The Bible
Abortion, infanticide and child abandonment were permitted under Roman law at the time of Jesus1. Surprisingly, abortion is never mentioned in the Bible, despite the fact that it has been practiced throughout recorded human history. However, a number of Bible passages may be relevant. These verses and others are often cited as evidence that a fetus is truly a living human being, and deserving the same protection:

At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. (NIV, Luke 1:39-44)

Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (NAS, Jeremiah 1:4-5)

I will say to God: ... "Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? (NIV, Job 10:2, 8-9)

Several other verses are cited as evidence that a fetus is not a living being. Life is equated with breath throughout the Bible, and this passage seems to suggest that a person is not living until he or she takes a first breath after birth:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

This passage from Exodus seems to say that causing death to a fetus is not as serious a crime as causing death to a person:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

...Lot's more stuff, but would take up too much space.

dizzy said...

bubba said...
// If a party's policies oppose many of a churches beliefs it is going to be very hard to campaign for that churchs members votes.
[...] //
Good comment. I remember Elizabeth May discussing abortion with a group of nuns while Judy Rebick [virtually] looked over her shoulder.
It was adroitly done, but Rebick still dropped the greenies.

Tof KW said...

bubba - like Ti-Guy I am also a devout Catholic. There is very little the CPofC and its followers push for that is in agreement with the church. They push for a return to capital punishment which is in direct disagreement with God's word (you know, that pesky 5th commandment). For that matter reducing money and aid to the third world nations (helping your fellow man), pursuit of neo-liberal economics that sees the concentration of wealth go to the corporations and well-off (as opposed to traditional Disraeli/Churchillian Conservatism where it is understood the rich must give back to ensure society as a whole progresses forward and prosperity is conserved), and disregard for environmental policy (destroying God’s earth) are all in direct opposition to Catholic teaching. If you think you are a true Christian, you should take a serious look at the CPofC if you think they somehow uphold Christian values. There is more to calling yourself a Christian, a lot more, than simply saying you are against abortion and gay marriage and blindly voting for Harper.